Honest Idea for fixing overly strong master cards!

Why not, a lot of people play Warhammer 40k and that used to be resolved with the die roll to determine who gets to go first - like Iron Hands and Space Wolves used to be so good because they got access to a re-roll of the starting die.

And I don't mean that those players aren't good, but VTES isn't a skill game to such a degree that they can expect to enter a single tournament, completely outclass everyone and win. Compared to something like, say, Starcraft where the best play for money and outclass your ordinary player crazily.

Demnogonis wrote:

And I don't mean that those players aren't good, but VTES isn't a skill game to such a degree that they can expect to enter a single tournament, completely outclass everyone and win. Compared to something like, say, Starcraft where the best play for money and outclass your ordinary player crazily.

Now I think you're just trolling, since the statistics completely contradict what you just said.

Yes, players like Jay Kristoff, Ben Peal, Matt Morgan, John Bell, Hugh Angseesing, Erik Torstensson, Ruben Feldman, Orian Gissler, and Darby Keeney ARE concerning to play against and DO expect to win every event that they enter, no matter where it is. THAT IS WHY THEY WIN SO OFTEN.

Robyn Tatu should probably be on that list, too, and she wins more than some of those players that I mentioned, but she is so low-key -- and a girl besides -- that only those that have had their hopes personally crushed by her are really aware of her at all. Which is part of her strategy, I'm sure. WHICH IS WHY SHE WINS SO OFTEN.

Your Starcraft analogy is spurious, since we don't play for money, but I'll bite. What we play for in VTES is two-fold: Bragging rights, and a TDWA entry. In our game, that's as-valuable as money is to the Starcraft players. If we did play for money, every single one of those players I mentioned would have been sponsored for the last 10 years and would have been playing VTES as a living, I guarantee.

Certainly, there is a lot to be said in VTES about the 'random' elements of deck choice and table seating. But to continue to deny the skill level of the top players shows that you're either a troll, or delusional. In either case: Please seek help.

Why not, a lot of people play Warhammer 40k and that used to be resolved with the die roll to determine who gets to go first - like Iron Hands and Space Wolves used to be so good because they got access to a re-roll of the starting die.

This analogy doesn't hold true either. The vast majority of the people that play Warhammer do it for the hobby aspect of molding and painting the miniatures. You just get a (rather shitty, IMO) game along with it.

And I don't mean that those players aren't good, but VTES isn't a skill game to such a degree that they can expect to enter a single tournament, completely outclass everyone and win. Compared to something like, say, Starcraft where the best play for money and outclass your ordinary player crazily.

Other than just repeating what Kevin said, they actually DO outclass the ordinary player.

Your argument is that the Flashes and Jeadong's (or Neastea's and MVP's is you're into SC2) of VTES don't outclass joe average in that game, while in fact they do. It just happens that they are not playing against Joe Average. They are playing against the Bisu's and Fantasy's of VTES. Sure they'll drop a game occasionally.

KevinM wrote:

Now I think you're just trolling, since the statistics completely contradict what you just said.

I don't care about that, I don't know the specifics of all the tournaments they have played but until I see it I don't believe anybody can be so magical as to simply go and win a tournament without a good amount of luck, considering that every participant knows how to play the game and didn't bring with them some total crap deck (which is often the case, but unskilled players with bad decks just add another luck element that has to do with seating). Like I said, everybody's pretty experienced already.

KevinM wrote:

Yes, players like Jay Kristoff, Ben Peal, Matt Morgan, John Bell, Hugh Angseesing, Erik Torstensson, Ruben Feldman, Orian Gissler, and Darby Keeney ARE concerning to play against and DO expect to win every event that they enter, no matter where it is. THAT IS WHY THEY WIN SO OFTEN.

What? This is like saying they win because they have psychic powers.

KevinM wrote:

Your Starcraft analogy is spurious, since we don't play for money, but I'll bite. What we play for in VTES is two-fold: Bragging rights, and a TDWA entry. In our game, that's as-valuable as money is to the Starcraft players. If we did play for money, every single one of those players I mentioned would have been sponsored for the last 10 years and would have been playing VTES as a living, I guarantee.

Okay. I don't play for that at all, I wouldn't brag with what I perceive as a result of random chance. I want to play good games with good people. However while it used to be that tournaments were exciting since you knew everybody was going to really try to win and probably packed good decks, too, now they're so monotonous I don't find them much fun, and the competitive aspect is overshadowed by the luck element.

KevinM wrote:

Certainly, there is a lot to be said in VTES about the 'random' elements of deck choice and table seating. But to continue to deny the skill level of the top players shows that you're either a troll, or delusional. In either case: Please seek help.

I continue to state that while these players are skilled, you can't improve that much over the average skill level everybody already has. But continue to worship some VTES players like statues if you so wish.

Izaak wrote:

This analogy doesn't hold true either. The vast majority of the people that play Warhammer do it for the hobby aspect of molding and painting the miniatures. You just get a (rather shitty, IMO) game along with it.

Well, no argument there, except that there used to be a lot of WH40k players who wouldn't even bother painting their miniatures (or gluing them together in some cases), they were in it for the game. The same goes for WHFB, I have played against an army where there was a headless horse, some elf and a dog without tail, resembling nine Bretonnian Grail Knights.

I'm just saying, people play games for a lot of different reasons.

Izaak wrote:

Your argument is that the Flashes and Jeadong's (or Neastea's and MVP's is you're into SC2) of VTES don't outclass joe average in that game, while in fact they do. It just happens that they are not playing against Joe Average. They are playing against the Bisu's and Fantasy's of VTES. Sure they'll drop a game occasionally.

No, my argument is that there aren't Flashes or Jeadongs, since that kind of divergence of skill from the general level isn't possible.

No, my argument is that there aren't Flashes or Jeadongs, since that kind of divergence of skill from the general level isn't possible.

Well.. then you're either not following SC/SC2 or have no idea about V:TES. Pick whichever you one prefer.

Demnogonis wrote:

No, my argument is that there aren't Flashes or Jeadongs, since that kind of divergence of skill from the general level isn't possible.

Bell curve, FTW.

Not only is it possible, it happens. There have been maybe 40 Continental Championships ever. There are probably only a dozen players who have actually won one of these. Brian Moritz is another such elite consistent player.

Conversely, think about how many players out there have never won a tournament. If you have a robust casual play group, think about those players who win tables at best 1 out of 10 games they play. You know these people exist, but they diverge in the other direction.

I think the best argument against your fallacious proposition is that VTES is a multi-player game. The inherent strength of some cards is more than balanced against them because of "table hate." Yes, some cards and some strategies tend to dominate, but it's mainly the players who make it happen. You can't just give a Girls deck to any random player and expect them to wreck every table.

Now, I sleep.