Honest Idea for fixing overly strong master cards!

So, your claim is that a limited number of players (as listed by KJM and added to by others) have due to random chance been multiple-time-winners of Continental Championships in Europe and Nth America. Let me inform you, that such a statistical anomaly to a random distribution would make me immediately claim "bull-crap".

If it is random chance, then the Archon's Ideal Table seating must completely favour a limited number of people (e.g. the game is rigged so those players consistently win) OR the alternative is that it is NOT just random chance and other factors must impact on the game (e.g. some people are better players than others).

Since I'm happy to assume that people are NOT rigging the game worldwide to favour Hugh Angseeing et al... the only other conclusion is that random chance does not win games but skill must be a significant contributing factor.

At your claim that some people have psychic powers, it's probably just a combination of extensive experience of the game, bluffing and reading faces. Basically the same skill set that tends to make good poker players.

Demnogonis wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Now I think you're just trolling, since the statistics completely contradict what you just said.

I don't care about that,
{snip}

Then nothing else you have to say is worthy of discussion.

Demnogonis wrote:

What? This is like saying they win because they have psychic powers.

Play with Kamel Senni at a table and you know what manipulating other players mean. And that it doesn't have to do a yota with luck. Seriously.

If you lose it is definitely not only bad luck (most often). It is the way how you play. And only if you manage to find out what it was it makes you a better player. The good players win despite the odds, that's what makes them good.

Izaak wrote:

Well.. then you're either not following SC/SC2 or have no idea about V:TES. Pick whichever you one prefer.

I mean in VTES, of course it's possible in SC which is a skill-based strategy game.

Jeff wrote:

Bell curve, FTW.

Not only is it possible, it happens. There have been maybe 40 Continental Championships ever. There are probably only a dozen players who have actually won one of these. Brian Moritz is another such elite consistent player.

That is interesting. I think that these players, perhaps, used to be as roughly as good back then, when most players hadn't caught up with experience. I also suppose a lot of people don't enter these tournaments regularly so they don't know what they are like. Well, experience is skill so in that regard I suppose those top players are good at these tournaments, but I'm not thinking about that at all but play skill.

Jeff wrote:

Conversely, think about how many players out there have never won a tournament. If you have a robust casual play group, think about those players who win tables at best 1 out of 10 games they play. You know these people exist, but they diverge in the other direction.

I don't know any such players save for one guy who has no idea at all how to play any game, whom I consider a massive luck element if he enters any tournament. I should also say that I don't really consider deck choice to be skill - of course all of us know the tired, T1 decks, but choosing them doesn't make you more skilled, just more likely to win than with something different.

Jeff wrote:

I think the best argument against your fallacious proposition is that VTES is a multi-player game. The inherent strength of some cards is more than balanced against them because of "table hate." Yes, some cards and some strategies tend to dominate, but it's mainly the players who make it happen. You can't just give a Girls deck to any random player and expect them to wreck every table.

I'm not talking about decks, either, well not anymore. A girls deck can dominate in some positions, well a lot of positions I think. A solid stealth bleed deck can dominate in some positions, but it's choices are so limited it's a luck based strategy in my eyes. Yet many win tournaments because it's such a popular archetype.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So, your claim is that a limited number of players (as listed by KJM and added to by others) have due to random chance been multiple-time-winners of Continental Championships in Europe and Nth America. Let me inform you, that such a statistical anomaly to a random distribution would make me immediately claim "bull-crap".

No, my claim is that people that go to every tournament on earth get a lot of tournament wins because the luck factor evens out the more you play. My claim is that an individual game of VTES is a game of chance because of how much seating, something you can't control, affects the game. And my claim is that people left in VTES are so skilled and experienced now, in my perception, that the brightest don't seem that bright anymore and I doubt it is possible to have such a skill you can win an individual game just by skill. Bah, I shouldn't have started talking about this tournament and top player stuff anyway, there's a lot more going on in tournaments than just the game.

Jeff wrote:

If it is random chance, then the Archon's Ideal Table seating

I don't know what that is and couldn't find it with Google.

Jeff wrote:

At your claim that some people have psychic powers, it's probably just a combination of extensive experience of the game, bluffing and reading faces. Basically the same skill set that tends to make good poker players.

I was just responding to Kevin's nonsensical statement that these players win because they want to.

KevinM wrote:

I don't care about that,
{snip}

Then nothing else you have to say is worthy of discussion.[/quote]

'k. Nice talking to 'ya.

Joscha wrote:

Play with Kamel Senni at a table and you know what manipulating other players mean. And that it doesn't have to do a yota with luck. Seriously.

I know what that means, everybody can do that.

Joscha wrote:

If you lose it is definitely not only bad luck (most often). It is the way how you play. And only if you manage to find out what it was it makes you a better player. The good players win despite the odds, that's what makes them good.

It is ordinary luck, after all there are usually four losers in a game of VTES. Rarely it has to do with anything else than the dynamics between the decks, a result of seating.

Demnogonis wrote:

It is ordinary luck, after all there are usually four losers in a game of VTES. Rarely it has to do with anything else than the dynamics between the decks, a result of seating.

Well, here is the thing. I'd never claim that luck of seating is not a significant factor in a game of VTES. As it is a very significant factor--as they say, "Man with no predator wins game". Which is true. What decks you randomly sit next to has a *huge* impact on the game, as VTES is very Paper/Scissor/Rock. What seat you are next to, what decks are at the table, and how you happen to draw cards in a given game have a lot to do with weather you win a given game or not. This is all true.

That being said, player skill also has a lot to do with winning. Building a good deck, playing the cards you draw well, and doing what you can with the random position you end up in is just as significant. Being a good player in VTES means that you make the right moves at the right time, play the right cards that you happen to draw in the right circumstances. Being a good player in VTES means you build your deck well and know how to play it.

Yes. People who play VTES tournaments a lot have more opportunities to win a lot. But that doesn't mean that all players win 1/5th of their games, in the grand scheme, which is what would be the case if your claim that VTES was governed simply by luck. There are plenty of people who play in regular groups. And over the long haul, in those groups, some people win more often than others. Which, if the game was purely random chance, wouldn't happen.

People who win lots of tournaments do so 'cause they are good at the game. In ways that transcend pure random chance. Like, I'd never claim that I'm the best VTES player in the world or anything. But I've been playing a log time, and I'm reasonably good. And I win more often than, say, friends who haven't been playing as long and don't grasp the game as well as I do, for example. And this isn't just the result of "I play a lot so my 1/5th chance of winning each game randomly adds up!". Again, I'm no VTES genius or anything. But I'm pretty good. And I win more often than people who are less pretty good than me. And people who are better at VTES than me win more often than I do. All of which adds up to "there is significantly more to this game than pure, random chance".

People who go to a lot of tournaments and win a lot do so 'cause they are good at the parts of the game that are not governed by chance. Using Matt Morgan as an example as, A) He just won the NAC, B ) (can I again point out that I hate automated smiley code? Really? I can't type "B" and a parenthesis without getting a stupid sunglasses smiley face? For real?) He wins a lot in general, and C) I've played a lot of games with him. Matt doesn't win a lot of VTES 'cause he is insanely lucky in terms of seating. And he doesn't win a lot of games if VTES 'cause he uses psychic (or just mundane) powers of mind control to get people to do what he wants. He wins a lot of games of VTES 'cause he understands the game very well, makes good decks, and can play the position he is dealt very well. He has specific, concrete skills involving the strategy and tactics of the game. Yes. The position he sits in and what he is next to is very random. But what you do with that position and what cards you draw is completely skill based. And is something that you can be good at (and thus win a lot) or bad at (and thus lose a lot). This is *skill*. Not luck.

Yeah, sometimes you just win 'cause you are lucky or lose 'cause you are unlucky. Most games are like that. And luck certainly has an impact on the game. But skill in building a deck and playing a position is just as, if not more so, significant than pure chance.

KevinM wrote:

What we play for in VTES is two-fold: Bragging rights, and a TDWA entry.

And the funny thing is that every top player I've ever met has been really down to earth guy who doesn't brag with his/her results. Quite the opposite really as they seem to be quite modest as well as helpful & encouraging towards not-so-able co-players.

While seating des have some effect in the game the biggest point still is the player skill. Hey, I've played quite a lot and look at my win ratio...