file Pre-Range

28 Sep 2015 14:47 #73385 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Re: Pre-Range
The overwhelming majority have been playing this game for a very long time and can parse the rules logically. The same cannot be said for the few who are new to the game and need clearer text in the rulebook.

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28 Sep 2015 15:27 #73387 by Blooded Sand
Replied by Blooded Sand on topic Re: Pre-Range
The text is totally clear. you chose to take a piece of text out of context, making it hard to understand

:assa: :flight: :QUI: :OBF: :POT: :FOR: :TEM: :DOM:

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28 Sep 2015 15:34 #73391 by Blooded Sand
Replied by Blooded Sand on topic Re: Pre-Range
Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
(emphasis mine)

A minion in combat can use a maneuver to get to long range, or he can maneuver to get back to close range if his opponent maneuvers to long. The two combatants can continue playing maneuvers (to keep offsetting the effects of their opponent's last maneuver) for as long as they wish. A minion cannot play two maneuvers in a row (which would effectively cancel each other).

Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver at the start of this phase.
(emphasis mine)
where is the hard to understand bit?

:assa: :flight: :QUI: :OBF: :POT: :FOR: :TEM: :DOM:

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28 Sep 2015 18:13 #73394 by TheLich
Replied by TheLich on topic Re: Pre-Range
So do you want to do me a favor and show me the "stages" of combat list?

Someone else said that would be too long. Really? 6 lines of text... here's what it could say.

Stages of Combat

Pre-Range
Determine Range
Pre-Strike
Strike Declaration
Strike Resolution
Press

Or even easier we can do this in the traditional formatting of implicit priority. I.e. A sequence of priority must be passed to all players following the declaration of any card being played or stage being entered. This allows for D.I. integration on a more intelligent level. Pre-Range-Strikes-Press-EOC to all be settled in a very logical way.

While I understand that the existing Methuselah's of V:TES are the type that abhor clarity and change, it is time to recognize that rules like this make it hard to hand out a rule book and not have someone come back with the phrase, "I think you taught me how to play this wrong." Every other game on the market is constantly evolving it's rules to make them easier to comprehend. Not to numb the game or to devolve it, but simple because it makes disputes and arguments melt away. The current rules are an epoxied mess of FAQ or LSJ referencing.

If you believe that a post where multiple people have responded with different ideas of how this one mechanic is supposed to be inferred, how can you excuse it with "well the experienced players know and that makes it ok" or "where is the hard to understand bit. If you take that Note to several people and ask them how it reads in just that context they will give you a bunch of different answers.

It would take 20 minutes to rework this and it would enhance education of the game dramatically.

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28 Sep 2015 19:38 #73396 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic Re: Pre-Range
You actually missed some stages of combat.

After Strike Resolution there should be "Declare Additional Strikes".

After Press there should be "End of Round/End of Combat". The rules resource lists "End of Round" as being before "End of Combat", but Pascal has been changing card texts so that "End of Round" happens at the same time as "End of Combat". Lots of stuff happens at the end of the round or end of combat.

I'm probably missing some. Different cards may create their very own stage of combat. Ammo cards, for instance: "before resolution of a gun's strike" has a very specific timing. Rotschreck?

You are right that the rules as written are inadequate with regards to timing. They were left that way to 1: preserve the notion that the game wasn't particularly complicated, 2: avoid the cost of rewriting and reprinting the rules, and 3: to allow designers to not be pinned down by strict timing guidelines. At least, that's my take.

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28 Sep 2015 21:42 #73399 by TheLich
Replied by TheLich on topic Re: Pre-Range
I agree with the likelihood that all three of what you said is true, now what I am saying is we simplify things even further by applying a simple template...

Or even easier we can do this in the traditional formatting of implicit priority. I.e. A sequence of priority must be passed to all players following the declaration of any card being played or stage being entered. This allows for D.I. integration on a more intelligent level. Pre-Range-Strikes-Press-EOC to all be settled in a very logical way.


Strike Resolution would then have a step of priority to each player that would occur, allowing them to play a card during that step and Rotschreck would also very easily fall into that clarification (by allowing priority to pass around once the card creating the aggravated damage is played or any time prior to actual strike resolution.

I know this seems minor to most of the people here, but this post makes so many things so much simpler to explain to players when they ask the inevitable, "When exactly can I play this card?"

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