Pre-Range

So basically you agree that the rule is badly written, but that it is good because it weeds out stupid people from playing VTES?

Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver at the start of this phase.

This does not say anything about it being a stage. In fact this doesn't even refer to determine range as a stage. Even though it is inferred in 6.4.1 to be one. It doesn't event reference it as if it is a separate staged process. According to 1.6.1.5 it is still part of the Determine Range step which is where I am allowed to decide whether or not I wish to maneuver.

If I read these rules I will see the game tell me to start combat at 6.4.2, I am then given the option as the acting player to play a maneuver and a special note lets me know that if I play a maneuver I will not be able to play a before range is determined card before I play my first maneuver, using the sequencing rules (1.6.1.5) I play all my prerange and then a maneuver because I am in the Determine Range step and am instructed to play a maneuver if I wish to play one. Sequencing then requires me to allow other players to play cards including the opponent in combat who now cannot play Prerange cards because I have played a maneuver.

In fact according to 6.4.3 can you tell me at what stage you play Immortal Grapple? There isn't even a note for that one.

Do I know that's not the way it is meant to work. Yes. Do I think you can spend a bunch of time on a forum or in person explaining to a player how it is supposed to be meant? Yes. Do I want to do that for any purpose other than improving the long term plans for the game? No.

What is so fundamentally wrong with just making these actual steps? Almost every other card game steps out their combats to make sure that people understand where cards go.

Okay, I think I can better understand the 1.6.1.5 rhetoric here enough to accept a little bit of what is actually happening here. Combat really goes like this...

1.6.1.5 trigger
Combat Begins
1.6.1.5 trigger
Manuever
1.6.1.5 trigger
Declare Strikes
1.6.1.5 trigger
Resolve Damage
1.6.1.5 trigger
Additional Strike
1.6.1.5 trigger
Declare Strike
1.6.1.5 trigger
Resolve Damage
1.6.1.5 trigger
Press
1.6.1.5 trigger
End Combat or Repeat round

I was making the incorrect assumption that 1.6.1.5 explained how to play the cards from each step, but Determine Range and Stealth / Intercept use the same rhetoric, implying that they are not part of 1.6.1.5 and are in fact the way the step is actually supposed to be executed. I apologize that I had such a misunderstanding of such an important rule and I appreciate the clarification. If this is correct that should be the last thing I needed to explain what I need to. For those of you that were patient and polite, I thank you.

TheLich wrote:

Okay, I think I can better understand the 1.6.1.5 rhetoric here enough to accept a little bit of what is actually happening here. Combat really goes like this...

1.6.1.5 trigger
Combat Begins
1.6.1.5 trigger
Manuever
1.6.1.5 trigger
Declare Strikes
1.6.1.5 trigger
Resolve Damage
1.6.1.5 trigger
Additional Strike
1.6.1.5 trigger
Declare Strike
1.6.1.5 trigger
Resolve Damage
1.6.1.5 trigger
Press
1.6.1.5 trigger
End Combat or Repeat round

That's it. Calling it impulse and viewing it as moving in between players every time a card or effect is played for any timing phase of the game, not just combat, is the best way to understand it.

TheLich wrote:

I was making the incorrect assumption that 1.6.1.5 explained how to play the cards from each step, but Determine Range and Stealth / Intercept use the same rhetoric, implying that they are not part of 1.6.1.5 and are in fact the way the step is actually supposed to be executed. I apologize that I had such a misunderstanding of such an important rule and I appreciate the clarification. If this is correct that should be the last thing I needed to explain what I need to. For those of you that were patient and polite, I thank you.

Sorry, but you started with Ad Hominem attacks. Help will always be friendly, patient, and polite. Unless YOU start out by being antagonistic and rude. In which case it wont be as nice and polite, but will still try to help.

Of course, you went and edited that bit out, but that is just a way to make yourself seem nicer and mroe polite than you actually are, a spectacularly fake way of acting.

I have only edited one post in the entire line of posts and it was to correct a typo. It was my third post in this chain. I do not understand where you think I was trying to attack anyone.

I can maybe see how my rhetoric in my fifth post could be condsidered agressive (an unedited post), but looking at the posting history I don't feel I was attacking anyone even by proxy. If you can point it out to me and want to post it here or pm me so I can avoid these kinds of miscommunications that would be great. In addition, if I did so then I am sorry.