Pre-Range

Blooded wrote:

Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.
(emphasis mine)

A minion in combat can use a maneuver to get to long range, or he can maneuver to get back to close range if his opponent maneuvers to long. The two combatants can continue playing maneuvers (to keep offsetting the effects of their opponent's last maneuver) for as long as they wish. A minion cannot play two maneuvers in a row (which would effectively cancel each other).

Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver at the start of this phase.
(emphasis mine)
where is the hard to understand bit?

In the first two paragraphs, the phrase "decides whether or not" does not appear anywhere. Why does it appear in the text you bolded? This is inconsistent, sloppy, and, for some of us, causes confusion. Similar language needs to be used throughout all of the text you quoted. "Effects that are played "before range is determined" are played before this step" is much better way to state the offending sentence.

Because it's the same as "enters the maneuver step" in that context, but from a practical point of view, you play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver.

According to the rulebook, you don't "play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver." You play them before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver. The way you state it in your post is much, much clearer.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Because it's the same as "enters the maneuver step" in that context, but from a practical point of view, you play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver.

According to the rulebook, you don't "play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver." You play them before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver. The way you state it in your post is much, much clearer.

You know, there is an amazing thing you should try, it is called context.
you are taking a rule out of context (said context being the holistic nature of the rules) and saying one rule doesn't work because it doesn't explain everything. Well, duh? Of course it doesn't, you need the other rules as context. Again, using an ad hominem of "old time vtes players are stuck on using the rules as they are and are not willing to change" is not going to make you any friends. Especially as most of us discussing this with you have actually been involved in changing a few of the rules for clarity's sake. The fact that YOU don't get it does NOT indicate a general misapprehension. Your problem is that you seem to not understand formal logic, which, tbh, is your problem, and not those who codified the rule book.

Blooded wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Because it's the same as "enters the maneuver step" in that context, but from a practical point of view, you play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver.

According to the rulebook, you don't "play "before range" cards typically before the acting Meth plays a maneuver." You play them before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver. The way you state it in your post is much, much clearer.

You know, there is an amazing thing you should try, it is called context.
you are taking a rule out of context (said context being the holistic nature of the rules) and saying one rule doesn't work because it doesn't explain everything. Well, duh? Of course it doesn't, you need the other rules as context. Again, using an ad hominem of "old time vtes players are stuck on using the rules as they are and are not willing to change" is not going to make you any friends. Especially as most of us discussing this with you have actually been involved in changing a few of the rules for clarity's sake. The fact that YOU don't get it does NOT indicate a general misapprehension. Your problem is that you seem to not understand formal logic, which, tbh, is your problem, and not those who codified the rule book.

Easy. I assure you I do not intend to do anything that you are accusing above. I am just pointing out that the rulebook doesn't consider a potential audience of new players.