Pre-Range
29 Sep 2015 19:59 - 29 Sep 2015 20:01 #73430
by Ke.
We've had quite a few new players in New Zealand recently (Auckland now has 8 fairly active players — which is insane). We've not involved the rule book at all in terms of teaching the game. The printed version is a joke in terms of font-size and complexity and is likely to scare off players as opposed to help them. The online version is better as you can at least search it.
New players been using the new player guide predominately for the referencing the phases of a turn and more frequently the phases / steps of combat:
Whilst it's not 100% the same as what's listed in 6.4.1. Combat Sequence, they are grouped appropriately and represent a simplified version of the sequencing flow.
Determine Range = A
Strike = B + C
Press = D + E
New players have gotten to grips with combat reasonably quickly when using this guide. Normally after 2 - 3 games they no longer need to reference the sheet.
This is great when you have someone to introduce you to the game — less so if trying to teach yourself and your friends. In this area I think the rules could be improved, I see no harm in mentioning in the 6.4.3. Strike step that any pre-strike cards must be played before any strikes are declared. A similar thing can be added to 6.4.2. Determine Range, ie. any "Before range cards should be played before range is determined". I understand that it seems redundant due to card text to experienced players, however for new players these extra few words would really help clarifying things.
Hopefully the PDF redesign of rules will help here.
On a similar note the definition for Combat Ends really does need updating as it is plainly incorrect:
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately."
We all know that combat does not end immediately, so why mislead in the rules? Perhaps it should say something like:
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat. Skip damage resolution and proceed to the end of the round. Presses have no effect and can not be played."
Or something along those lines...
Replied by Ke. on topic Re: Pre-Range
I guess that means you haven't taught the game to a completely new player for some time? I got the impression from Lich's post that he was describing his actual difficulty with teaching new players.
We've had quite a few new players in New Zealand recently (Auckland now has 8 fairly active players — which is insane). We've not involved the rule book at all in terms of teaching the game. The printed version is a joke in terms of font-size and complexity and is likely to scare off players as opposed to help them. The online version is better as you can at least search it.
New players been using the new player guide predominately for the referencing the phases of a turn and more frequently the phases / steps of combat:
Whilst it's not 100% the same as what's listed in 6.4.1. Combat Sequence, they are grouped appropriately and represent a simplified version of the sequencing flow.
Determine Range = A
Strike = B + C
Press = D + E
New players have gotten to grips with combat reasonably quickly when using this guide. Normally after 2 - 3 games they no longer need to reference the sheet.
This is great when you have someone to introduce you to the game — less so if trying to teach yourself and your friends. In this area I think the rules could be improved, I see no harm in mentioning in the 6.4.3. Strike step that any pre-strike cards must be played before any strikes are declared. A similar thing can be added to 6.4.2. Determine Range, ie. any "Before range cards should be played before range is determined". I understand that it seems redundant due to card text to experienced players, however for new players these extra few words would really help clarifying things.
Hopefully the PDF redesign of rules will help here.
On a similar note the definition for Combat Ends really does need updating as it is plainly incorrect:
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately."
We all know that combat does not end immediately, so why mislead in the rules? Perhaps it should say something like:
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat. Skip damage resolution and proceed to the end of the round. Presses have no effect and can not be played."
Or something along those lines...
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30 Sep 2015 05:20 - 30 Sep 2015 07:17 #73445
by Ankha
Changing "before range is determined" to something else doesn't solve the issue.
I've seen plenty of new players playing Taste of Vitae before using presses.
Taste of Vitae says "at the end of the round". Maybe it would be clearer for them if it stated "after the press step".
Do you see the issue? Players get confused if we use before step X (such as "before range is determined"). But players get confused too if we don't use "after step X".
Furthermore, there's a contradiction between having more detailed rules and having more simple rules. The longer the rules, the harder it is for new players to remember everything.
The rulebook describes the rules of a complex game. It's hard to handle for new players, but it's not its purpose. The issue here is: if the rulebook wrong (see original post)?
There are some projects in progress that address new players.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Pre-Range
Sure, but that doesn't contradict what I say.
I wish I had a panel of "new" players, because there's no typical new player.Easy. I assure you I do not intend to do anything that you are accusing above. I am just pointing out that the rulebook doesn't consider a potential audience of new players.
Some may have played other TCG, some not. Some may be at ease with logic, some not. Some may be nit-picking, some not.
How can one tell if the rules are unclear because of one person reading it another way? Maybe 99 other new players would find the rule perfectly clear. Or the reverse, but none of us can tell.
We all have our prefered way of explaining things or being taught things.
The rulebook should assume the reader knows nothing about the game. All new players have that in common.
Changing "before range is determined" to something else doesn't solve the issue.
I've seen plenty of new players playing Taste of Vitae before using presses.
Taste of Vitae says "at the end of the round". Maybe it would be clearer for them if it stated "after the press step".
Do you see the issue? Players get confused if we use before step X (such as "before range is determined"). But players get confused too if we don't use "after step X".
Furthermore, there's a contradiction between having more detailed rules and having more simple rules. The longer the rules, the harder it is for new players to remember everything.
I do teach new players, but I don't use the rulebook to teach brand new players. I'd rather use my initiation decks and iterative explanations. But that's off topic.
How can one tell if the rules are unclear because of one person reading it another way? Maybe 99 other new players would find the rule perfectly clear. Or the reverse, but none of us can tell.
I guess that means you haven't taught the game to a completely new player for some time? I got the impression from Lich's post that he was describing his actual difficulty with teaching new players. If we never teach new players, then updating the rulebook to make it a comprehensive teaching tool is a waste of time, it's true.
The rulebook says there are three phases to combat, but all experienced players know that that is incorrect. Ideally the rules would tell all the stages of combat, and then every card would be played in one of those stages. Cards that are played in the same stage by different players would follow the ordering rules.
The rulebook describes the rules of a complex game. It's hard to handle for new players, but it's not its purpose. The issue here is: if the rulebook wrong (see original post)?
The rules doesn't change between the rulebook and the guide (or it means the guide is wrong). It's different because it's written differently, but they describe the same thing (the guide is maybe less accurate for simplicity).I agree that this guide is great. The problem is that it isn't reflected by the rules, so when a new player goes back and reads the rules they ask, "Why is this guide different than the rules?"
It means you need the guide to teach new players, not the rulebook that serves as the official reference.If the rules stated what the guide did, then I wouldn't even be having this conversation.
It does. But it's not the easiest way for new players to learn the game.The rulebook should assume the reader knows nothing about the game. All new players have that in common.
There are some projects in progress that address new players.
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