Stealing life from Tunnel Runner

Brum wrote:

The issue is when does the Total Strength of the Minion counts for the damage.
It is not really clear for new players. Between strike declaration and damage resolution the Horde looses strength. (if it dies, that's a whole different point).
But that's ok, 'cause the strike's original strength is previously saved in a 'you might call it a stack or paralymbus or Azoressaurus or anything else'.

A stack means that you have a last-in-first-out (LIFO) logic - this is not the case here (I think you'd have a much stronger case arguing for the existence of stacks in VtES when discussing Sudden Reversal/Direct Intervention).

There is a 'memory register' for this effect, yes, but this is neither a stack nor at all strange in VtES - all action cards work on the same principle, where you play the card to have an effect at a later point in the play sequence and this effect can be modified between those two points.

skimflux wrote:

Brum wrote:

The issue is when does the Total Strength of the Minion counts for the damage.
It is not really clear for new players. Between strike declaration and damage resolution the Horde looses strength. (if it dies, that's a whole different point).
But that's ok, 'cause the strike's original strength is previously saved in a 'you might call it a stack or paralymbus or Azoressaurus or anything else'.

A stack means that you have a last-in-first-out (LIFO) logic - this is not the case here (I think you'd have a much stronger case arguing for the existence of stacks in VtES when discussing Sudden Reversal/Direct Intervention).

There is a 'memory register' for this effect, yes, but this is neither a stack nor at all strange in VtES - all action cards work on the same principle, where you play the card to have an effect at a later point in the play sequence and this effect can be modified between those two points.

A Stack in card games can be LIFO and FIFO, depending on the game.
Stacks in VtES are running jokes between some folks.
Ever since Bundi (my big contention with LSJ) even the words 'and' and 'or' have different definitions than in Math or IT.

I've had 2 hours of real life conversation with people who know much more than me of the topics of card game design and VtES, about this particular case (theft vs SH).
It led nowhere because the game rules are broken (we enumerated some of the things that make it broken in a consensus).

And that's the whole point here. The life total of the SH changes between strike declaration and strike resolution.

Vincent's use of the word 'sequence' in the Tunnel Runner example is correct.
First you move the blood or life and then the minion is dealt 2+1 damage.

BTW guys, even if the SH would die as a result of the Theft of Vitae, it would STILL deal its 2 hand damage.
The only counter intuitive thing here is if the minion playing superior Theft had no blood.
There's 'memory' of what the strike was. But there's no stack.

Ankha wrote:

skimflux wrote:

However you are missing the window 'before strike resolution' in your example, so I would clarify it like this:
<snip detailed description>

I appreciate the effort, but the purpose of this thread is to answer the original question in which there is no prevention involved (otherwise, I would say that you are missing the DI window on the Blood to Water ),

Of course, I forgot about DI! Which opens up a window for Sudden Reversal, which is then countered by Wash...

not to exhaust all possible scenarios for the sake of completeness

Given the complexity of some scenarios, I find it is sometimes necessary to explore them quite extensively in order to be clear on why a certain result is achieved.

No need to bring up Blood to Water here though, I'll give you that.

Brum wrote:

A Stack in card games can be LIFO and FIFO, depending on the game.

Can you give an example of a fifo stack in a card game? I am not aware of such. As far as I know, the concept of "stack" as a LIFO data type is relatively universal.

Ever since Bundi (my big contention with LSJ) even the words 'and' and 'or' have different definitions than in Math or IT.

It led nowhere because the game rules are broken (we enumerated some of the things that make it broken in a consensus).

That VTES rules are 'broken' we can agree on..