Stealing life from Tunnel Runner

Brum wrote:

Theft of Vitae vs Shambling Hordes is the stack in a stackless game.
'How much strength does Shambling Hordes hits the Tremere with?'

Name: Shambling Hordes

[FN:C2, LotN:PG4]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 3 blood
Discipline: Necromancy
Zombie with 3 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed.
[nec] When Shambling Hordes enters play, remove an ally or vampire in your ash heap from the game or burn the Hordes. The Hordes gets +1 strength for each life counter it has. It can never gain life; any life it gains goes to the blood bank instead. The Hordes can enter combat with any minion as a action.
[NEC] As above, with 4 life.
Artist: Steve Ellis

A good question, which would almost warrant it's own topic. Thanks for bringing it up!

Ankha wrote:

skimflux wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Upon strike resolution:
The vampire steals 2 blood and takes 2 damage.
Then the vampire takes 1 damage from the Tunnel Runner's strike. The vampire ends up with 0 blood.

While the end result is the same, this sequence is wrong and a frequent cause of confusion.
(...)

Thank you, but why are you saying the sequence is not correct?

Because you wrote 'Then the vampire takes 1 damage(...)', implying a sequence.

Ankha wrote:

Khalid1988 wrote:

Brum wrote:

Theft of Vitae vs Shambling Hordes is the stack in a stackless game.
'How much strength does Shambling Hordes hits the Tremere with?'

Name: Shambling Hordes

[FN:C2, LotN:PG4]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 3 blood
Discipline: Necromancy
Zombie with 3 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed.
[nec] When Shambling Hordes enters play, remove an ally or vampire in your ash heap from the game or burn the Hordes. The Hordes gets +1 strength for each life counter it has. It can never gain life; any life it gains goes to the blood bank instead. The Hordes can enter combat with any minion as a action.
[NEC] As above, with 4 life.
Artist: Steve Ellis

A good question, which would almost warrant it's own topic. Thanks for bringing it up!

There is no stack involved, unless you see two consecutive events as a stack (but don't blame the rules if you see stacks where there are none!)
The two consecutive events are:
Minion A announces his strike (let's say: steat 2 blood).
Minion B announces his strike (let's say: hand strike for 4 damage).
Strikes resolve simultaneously: A steals 2 blood from B, B inflicts 4 damage on A
A decides to prevent or to heal damage.

I understand the sequence.

The issue is when does the Total Strength of the Minion counts for the damage.
It is not really clear for new players. Between strike declaration and damage resolution the Horde looses strength. (if it dies, that's a whole different point).
But that's ok, 'cause the strike's original strength is previously saved in a 'you might call it a stack or paralymbus or Azoressaurus or anything else'.

Ankha wrote:

Khalid1988 wrote:

Brum wrote:

Theft of Vitae vs Shambling Hordes is the stack in a stackless game.
'How much strength does Shambling Hordes hits the Tremere with?'

Name: Shambling Hordes

[FN:C2, LotN:PG4]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 3 blood
Discipline: Necromancy
Zombie with 3 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed.
[nec] When Shambling Hordes enters play, remove an ally or vampire in your ash heap from the game or burn the Hordes. The Hordes gets +1 strength for each life counter it has. It can never gain life; any life it gains goes to the blood bank instead. The Hordes can enter combat with any minion as a action.
[NEC] As above, with 4 life.
Artist: Steve Ellis

A good question, which would almost warrant it's own topic. Thanks for bringing it up!

There is no stack involved, unless you see two consecutive events as a stack (but don't blame the rules if you see stacks where there are none!)
The two consecutive events are:
Minion A announces his strike (let's say: steat 2 blood).
Minion B announces his strike (let's say: hand strike for 4 damage).
Strikes resolve simultaneously: A steals 2 blood from B, B inflicts 4 damage on A
A decides to prevent or to heal damage.

Agreed, there is no need for a stack here.

However you are missing the window 'before strike resolution' in your example, so I would clarify it like this:
1. Choose strike:
1.a Minion A announces his strike (steal 2 blood)
1.b Minion B (Shambling Hordes) announces his strike (hand strike for damage equals to his life - 4)
2. 'Before strike resolution' window can modify strike effects (eg, if Blood to Water is played the SH burns and combat ends)
3. Resolve Strike (both strikes resolve at the same time):
3.a. Determine strike effects (for both strikes: so the SH are hitting for 4, and Minion A is stealing 2 blood)
3.b. Apply strike effects
4. (If damage exists) Resolve damage
4.a Play/use damage prevention
4.b Heal/apply damage

Note that 3.a and 3.b are atomic (meaning no effects can change the game state between them) and not in the rulesbook, but I would argue that this breakdown exists implicitly, otherwise the results of the SH strike are undetermined/ambiguous (because during the Strike Resolution they will be both at 4 and 2 life)