On Tupdog 7. "problematic card".

Having played tupdogs, i know its a risky game. Playing it oftentimes results in crushing 1-2 players reliably.

And this is exactly the problem.

What other deck crushes 2 players reliably? What other deck does consistently make 40% of the guys at your table unable to play?

There is also a HUGE difference between Tupdogs and "the other decks that were mentioned. For starters, they usually need rush cards so throwing upo chump blockers actually makes sense. Also, they can't influence out 2-3 early to shut you down so hard that you can't hurt them anymore. Furthermore, Tupdogs don't have to protect their minions. You're immune to Pentex and don't have to worry about ousting power because you are using someone else's minions to bleed. Of course !Tremere having 3 weenies available in the Tupdog grouping with dominate helps as well.

Comparing Tupdog to to Tariq or Muaziz is so clueless.

I am not an experimented player, but if you believe the tupdog should be changed, how would you do ?

It would be sad to just ban this fun card, so it would be better to find a way to make the card slower (since the problem is that it destroy vampire too quickly, if I understand correctly the problems)

THe "must be ready" clause for crypt draw seem to not be too useful ; it force the tupdog to play more prevention and may make it more unreliable, but with a good draw (or against people unable to put significant harm) they will still destroy players quickly.

Making tupdogs unique would limit the number of rush per turn, but may be too little. I'm not too sure.

I don't give opinion on the topic, because how little I have played against tupdogs, but I definitely not want to see them banned.

Izaak wrote:

Having played tupdogs, i know its a risky game. Playing it oftentimes results in crushing 1-2 players reliably.

And this is exactly the problem.

What other deck crushes 2 players reliably? What other deck does consistently make 40% of the guys at your table unable to play?

There is also a HUGE difference between Tupdogs and "the other decks that were mentioned. For starters, they usually need rush cards so throwing upo chump blockers actually makes sense. Also, they can't influence out 2-3 early to shut you down so hard that you can't hurt them anymore. Furthermore, Tupdogs don't have to protect their minions. You're immune to Pentex and don't have to worry about ousting power because you are using someone else's minions to bleed. Of course !Tremere having 3 weenies available in the Tupdog grouping with dominate helps as well.

Comparing Tupdog to to Tariq or Muaziz is so clueless.

When there is a table with wennie Dragon's Breath Round Graverobing deck we have the same problem, prey and predator must coordinate their moves to bring out several vampires at the same time. Following you statement we should ban Dragon's Breath Rounds then. Honestly, I don't see the point about banning or changing Tupdog, I played Tupdog before for a while and normally is a good deck for arriving in the final, but then it's the most complicated deck for winning a final IMHO.

acbishop wrote:

I played Tupdog before for a while and normally is a good deck for arriving in the final, but then it's the most complicated deck for winning a final IMHO.

This presents (at least to me) a new way to think about decks. I guess Tupdogs (or weenie , weenie DBR, NSftM, etc.) are a pain when in casual games since there is only that one game at stake.

In a tournament where ultimately the deck needs to win the final table (compared to just getting 1+ VPs in previous rounds), player skill becomes increasingly more important as the game progresses (and the library runs thin, in this case).

When there is a table with wennie Dragon's Breath Round Graverobing deck we have the same problem, prey and predator must coordinate their moves to bring out several vampires at the same time.

Actually, no.

Yes, weenie DBR is annoying as fuck as well. But, for starters, if you kill their guys they stay dead. They're not getting new ones for virtually free because they actually have to draw crypt cards. Also, they pay more than 1 pool per rush (because the gun costs 1 as well), have to actually play Bum's Rush, have the full combo (Conceal, SNS DBR) on hand AND get foiled by pretty much every defensive combat card in existence.

Following you statement we should ban Dragon's Breath Rounds then.

Yes because having to blow up a gun (that costs pool and takes effort to get) is the same thing. I can see you're following my logic perfectly...

/sarcasm.

If potence would have a FREE combat card that would make your handstrike aggrevated at inferior potence then yes, I think it should be banned. Welcome to Tupdogs.

They get WAY WAY WAY too many combat goodies and abilities for a non-unique 1-cap. Their //only// disadvantage is not even a real disadvantage because you just end up getting free blockers.

If anything Tupdogs should enter play tapped.

I should have said they can reliably oust a player or two if they dont stall, to get it moving reliably i have to stock some 20 or so tupdogs which if you played it often enough can mean that you wont get a Tremere anti in the next few turns.
I've had several games where i didnt get a Tremere anti until the 5th round or so even with rapid cycle afforded by Tupdogs. True, it is hard to defend against them. But in our gaming group we have a lot of combat decks so we have gotten accustomed to some defense. But i understand where your frustration with this card comes from.