On Tupdog 7. "problematic card".

I'm still somewhat undecided. I really don't like banning cards but I'm leaning towards CON. Izaak put it really well, what it does is essentially ruin the game for two players. There are some brutal hosers but stuffing every deck with enough of them (1 won't cut it, since you most likely won't have minions to cycle cards) for the off chance you're up against a tupdog is silly.

We play the game to have fun, not sit and wait because influencing will lower you chance of winning. Madness of the bard was banned not because it was too good but because it ruined the gaming experience.

Izaak wrote:

In either case it fucks up enough of the 5 player game to make the game stupid. Unlike popular believe, they also aren't exactly harder to play than any other rush deck and the 1 pool per turn thing is EASILY compensated by using Montreal and/or Dreams. The different is that when sitting behind something similarly retarded as weenie potence you can at least try and get some crosstable rescues and DO something. When up against Tupdogs your vampires end up in your opponents ready region and will just help him oust you while you sit there unable to play.

Just like any case where there is a dangerous combat deck around, you have to carefully time your influencing of minions. Don't bring out one minion at a time. Preferably bring out 2 or 3 or even 4 simultaneously. Similarly, work with the guy on the other side of Tupdog, so that you bring all your guys out at the same time.

Tupdog will eventually stall on the crypt cards. You eventually draw into all the Tremere Antitribu, and/or need to spend a turn using your transfers for a crypt card. Look for opportunities when there are few (or no) Tupdogs around for a turn, and then bring out your minions then.

As an example; on day 2 of the EC I sat next to Tupdogs in THREE out of four games. On the first table, the guy -my predator- got 100% shut down by a turn 2 Gran Madre (this is ALSO stupid btw) and thus was a free VP for his predator. He didn't perform a single action.

Then that is a very poor Tupdog deck. Poorly designed and poorly played. Gran Madre is very frustrating for Tupdog, but there are a few workarounds, including: As the Crow (to untap after you hunt), Heidelberg Castle, Lilith's Blessing (one of our *favorite* cards!). You could also include other blood management cards (one time Blood Doll, University Hunting Ground, the Coven) if Gran Madre is prevalent in the area. Most Tupdog decks should also have an answer to annoying locations (Secure Haven being the other one).

In round two, some Tupdog guy was my predator and when I asked him if it was ok for me to have a guy out to hurt my prey he said no and thus I ended up being a 34 pool (2 dreams) poolsack for 1 hour and 58 minutes watching Otso (my prey) getting a free ticket to the finals. Yes, this is mostly the player being an idiot, but the archtype doesn't really lend itself for anything else than destroying someone's game in the first place.

That could have happened with any sort of combat deck. Tariq/Muaziz/Hardestadt/Una/Tyler Eats the World for example.

That is a very stupid player. Most of the time you want your prey to spend lots of pool on minions because it is less pool you have to go through. (Exceptions might be if he is super bloaty, or if you are packing a heavy deck with good bleed).

Alternatively, if you didn't have any targets, then your predator should have used table management skills to keep your prey from running away with the table.

In the finals my prey was a Tupdog deck and he actually played it well. Still, just being "that deck" caused two guys at the table to try and figure out a way to actually act before getting their shit killed and graverobbed/raw recruited. Again, the Tupdog deck didn't win (ya know, like weenie potence doesn't usually win either) but the game was utter shit from a "let's play cards perspective". I mean, I had some fun playing "confuse the fuck out of everyone" and selling Parity Shift pool, but I wasn't playing cards. I was just waiting to get ousted with 0% chance of killing my prey.

That happens all the time, with lots of non-Tupdog and non-combat decks. There are a ridiculous number of "not fun to play against" decks. Girls decks. Sensory Deprivation decks. First Tradition decks. Imbued decks. Una decks. Grand Ball decks (especially with Anthelios recursion).

Dealing with Tupdogs just requires way too specific tech (Gran Madre, Tension and Hidden Strength is pretty much it) to incorporate in a deck so you end up either playing a deck full of silver bullets and pray or just die to Tupdogs. No other mainstream strategy has such an impact on the game as them goddamned 1-caps.

Tension is hardly a cornercase card. I hear Scourge of the Enochians is pretty popular nowadays. Obedience and Alpha Glint don't care about Tupdog combat. Kiasyd stealth bleed can wiggle out of grapples with Fae Contortion. Setites with Temptation are absolutely vicious (I take control of your Tupdog! Hey look I get a free crypt card. Thanks!). Other combat decks can potentially take out the Tremere Antitribu masters, preventing the Tupdogs from doing anything. So I hardly think you need "special tech" just for Tupdog.

And hey, if push comes to shove, you can always build a deck around the "immune to Tupdogs" Ravnos, Hazimel! Or Claudio Severino! Or build your own Tupdog deck but with Rock Cats, which will totally p0wn other people's Tupdogs! B)

If you are an easy VP because you are playing Tup Dogs, it's your own damn fault.
It makes the table go faster and less time outs.
It destroys Girls decks (the root of all evil, by some accounts).
It allows to cycle crypts in non or decks. Yes, I know Anarch Convert does that too, but forces you to turn your vamps anarch...

It's pure destructive force against another Methuselah is not very different from weenie

CONTRA

Tupdogs were acceptable until Heirs to the Blood came out. Then they got +1 stealth rush (Dive Bomb), +1 stealth steal vampire in torpor (Raw Recruit), and set range (Brick by Brick).

These cards mean that you can't use weenies to protect your big vampires unless the weenies can produce intercept, and it means that you can't outmaneuver the Gargoyles and their aggravated grapple damage (plus press!). You basically have to have lots of Auspex weenies to spare or play with superior Hidden Strength, as Izaak said.

echiang wrote:

Just like any case where there is a dangerous combat deck around, you have to carefully time your influencing of minions. Don't bring out one minion at a time. Preferably bring out 2 or 3 or even 4 simultaneously. Similarly, work with the guy on the other side of Tupdog, so that you bring all your guys out at the same time.

This is of course the only strategy, and it's bad when there is only one strategy to choose from. You and your cross-table can't even take turns rescuing each other since your vampires will just be stolen. As I mentioned, it's not even usually feasible to bring out sacrifical vampires against the Tupdogs now. If you have a combat deck on the other side of you as well, you might as well play for 0.5 VPs.

PRO.

Having played tupdogs, i know its a risky game. Playing it oftentimes results in crushing 1-2 players reliably. Getting through the 3rd and 4th player is oftentimes the trick, most often than not you get the ire of the whole table early and they start working cohesively against you. So it seems kinda powerful at first but too risky for a tournament in my opinion. So i'd rather keep them where they are right now.

Come on, here...