Proxies and the VEKN

As someone who is wanting to run more tournaments, and judge more tournaments, in my local playgroup. I don't want proxies on some list that is not "the entire possible list of cards".

I don't want them because:
#1 I am forgetful at times, and there are many THOUSANDS of cards in VTES. I will forget which cards are currently on the 'proxy-legal' list, unless I know that ALL cards are on there.

#2 I think that you should take the rarity-situation and use it to extend your deck building and play style. Want to build a deck that requires 4 more Ashur Tablets than you have? Well either stump up the money and have them for the rest of your VTES playing days (barring Acts of Cat which occured to one Sydney player)... or build the deck differently, or build a different deck-type entirely.

#3 I don't want to be involved in any of the potentially long, rediculous and money-consuming fights that could happen between players, the VEKN, WotC/Hasbro and WW/CCP over copyright. It's just not worth it. I'd like to see someone ressurrect VTES and start printing it, but that WILL NOT happen if there is some long ongoing courtcase with players/VEKN getting sued by the copyright holders because we decided to load their cards onto a website and produce them because we didn't like paying $30 for a single card on eBay. VTES doesn't really quite have the understanding of Expensive Chase Rare, MtG has the monopoly on that... they regularly have single cards that are worth more than my entire VTES collection.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

As someone who is wanting to run more tournaments, and judge more tournaments, in my local playgroup. I don't want proxies on some list that is not "the entire possible list of cards".

I don't want them because:
#1 I am forgetful at times, and there are many THOUSANDS of cards in VTES. I will forget which cards are currently on the 'proxy-legal' list, unless I know that ALL cards are on there.

Do you think you would remember a permanent list of 3-5 cards as opposed to a longer, changing card list?

#2 I think that you should take the rarity-situation and use it to extend your deck building and play style. Want to build a deck that requires 4 more Ashur Tablets than you have? Well either stump up the money and have them for the rest of your VTES playing days (barring Acts of Cat which occured to one Sydney player)... or build the deck differently, or build a different deck-type entirely.

This is an aspect that I don't see adding anything of value to the game. It used to be a necessary evil. Now it's an unnecessary evil.

#3 I don't want to be involved in any of the potentially long, rediculous and money-consuming fights that could happen between players, the VEKN, WotC/Hasbro and WW/CCP over copyright. It's just not worth it. I'd like to see someone ressurrect VTES and start printing it, but that WILL NOT happen if there is some long ongoing courtcase with players/VEKN getting sued by the copyright holders because we decided to load their cards onto a website and produce them because we didn't like paying $30 for a single card on eBay. VTES doesn't really quite have the understanding of Expensive Chase Rare, MtG has the monopoly on that... they regularly have single cards that are worth more than my entire VTES collection.

If there's any legal complications the whole idea should obviously be scrapped.

Honestly before I would accept proxies at a tournament I was running, I'd want to see a statement from someone with the proper authority to say that we could go ahead with printing proxies from say an online printer. Them not responding doesn't mean they won't respond with Lawyers later.

But as has been noted already, what would define the 'short list' of cards? And most people are looking at a list of 3 to 5 cards, they're looking at a list of 10+ cards just from the debate that has gone on here and the Usenet Group. It's also an issue of the card-pool of playgroups, my own playgroup has a fairly limited pool of cards before about 3rd Ed. (Myself and one other regular attender have the majority of pre-KMW cards and I have the majority of old-anarch cards). I don't own a Sensory Deprivation, barely own Pentexes (and Sydney seems not to play it generally) and so on... Should the decision be made on the US situation, the Euro Situation, the SE-Asian/AUSNZ situation, the state of eBay prices? I agree with others who have said it should be "Proxy everything or nothing"... I just worry that we're looking to set ourselves up as an organisation to get obliterated by copyright lawyers by even trying.

The game is currently in torpor because of copyright issues between WotC-Hasbro and WW-CCP... do you want to step in between those two?

bakija wrote:

The main advantage of proxies? It puts all players on an even keel. With proxies, all players have access to all cards in whatever number they want. Which allows folks to make any decks they want without having to deal with card access. Which has a lot to recommend it. If you instead just have *some* cards available to be proxied, you get a lot of disadvantage (practical issues, card value issues, hypothetical companies not wanting to invest in a game where you don't need to buy many cards issues) with only limited advantage (i.e. not having all players on an even keel, card wise).

By only allowing certain proxies you address the problem of suppliers losing value on their stock.
e.g. The Camarilla set may be in short supply/not available from retailers, so Parity Shift is allowed to be proxied.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Honestly before I would accept proxies at a tournament I was running, I'd want to see a statement from someone with the proper authority to say that we could go ahead with printing proxies from say an online printer. Them not responding doesn't mean they won't respond with Lawyers later.

There could be a difference between an online printer printing proxies for money and a local prince printing cards for free. I wouldn't get involved before clearing potential legal problems either.

But as has been noted already, what would define the 'short list' of cards? And most people are looking at a list of 3 to 5 cards, they're looking at a list of 10+ cards just from the debate that has gone on here and the Usenet Group. It's also an issue of the card-pool of playgroups, my own playgroup has a fairly limited pool of cards before about 3rd Ed. (Myself and one other regular attender have the majority of pre-KMW cards and I have the majority of old-anarch cards). I don't own a Sensory Deprivation, barely own Pentexes (and Sydney seems not to play it generally) and so on... Should the decision be made on the US situation, the Euro Situation, the SE-Asian/AUSNZ situation, the state of eBay prices? I agree with others who have said it should be "Proxy everything or nothing"...

Ashur Tablets is a card that many players want many copies of, regardless of region I'd expect. Villein may be as well. I don't know if any other card is worth the trouble. As I've admitted before, there are increasing downsides to go with an increasing list of allowed proxies.

I just worry that we're looking to set ourselves up as an organisation to get obliterated by copyright lawyers by even trying.

The game is currently in torpor because of copyright issues between WotC-Hasbro and WW-CCP... do you want to step in between those two?

I've already answered that question.

It has been mentioned elsewhere that new cards could be made for future storylines. Perhaps this is one way to address the perceived card availability problem. Either new cards or reprints could help.