file Proxies and the VEKN

08 Feb 2011 17:57 #1210 by Suoli
Replied by Suoli on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN

If a majority of players feels that, say, Lilith's Blessing and Ashur Tablets are in the same class as Villein then allowing those should be considered as well. Nothing nebulous or overly complicated about it.


What makes you think that the majority of players, once this can of worms gets opened, and has the choice to make, like, 50+ cards available as proxies, they wouldn't do that? Again, why stop at Villein and 2 other cards?


They don't get to choose. They can voice their opinions and VEKN can take them into consideration. And no, I don't believe that the majority of players would even agree on more than a handful of proxy candidates.

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09 Feb 2011 06:28 #1218 by fojtik
Replied by fojtik on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN

What "deck types" require Villeins, without which they are unplayable? As most things that I would call "deck types" existed prior to the first printing of Villein.

And I must say that I find it facinating that Villein is both available enough to make Minion Tap not an alternative and yet rare enough that it is one of your top choices for being made into a proxy.


Every deck which have vampires with 5 capacity or more works better with Villeins. Especially when Lilith's Blessing + Villein combo works really nice. Look at www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm - last year 80% of winning decks contains Villein.

Dan
(reprint Villein as promo)


Could I get some clarification as to what you are claiming?

First you are not asserting that the lack of Villeins makes any deck types unplayable? or are you saying that a lack of Villeins makes a certain deck type (a Lilith's Blessing + Villein combo deck) unplayable?


I don't agree that "every" deck which has capacity 5 vampires "works better" with Villeins. Villeins, or pool recapture, is arguably needed for higher capacity decks than for lower capacity decks. At what capacity Villein is better than Tribute to the Master, Vessel, Blood Doll, Minion Tap etc. might be 5 or it might be 8. I really don't know. If you have some math/evidence for your 5 capacity I would appreciate seeing it as it would improve my deck building.

Lastly,
(a) 80% of TWD from 2010;
(b) 80% of TWD from 2010 with a crypt average over 5; or
(c) 80% of TWD from 2010 with at least one crypt card with a capacity of 5+
contained Villeins?

It really sounds like (a) but I don't want to put arguments into your mouth.

It is worth noting that less than 30% of TWD from 2010 used Villein. (By my quick count 62 of 208 decks, but I only counted once and could be off by a few. If the handful of decks (5ish) had Villeins instead it would push the percentage closer to one third.)



Ok, point for you. I do not count percentage, look on last 15 decks and estimate it. But I thing that 30% is really high number.
I wasnt exact abbout decks with capacity 5 vasmpires. I want to say that decks with capacity 5 or higher works better with villeins. Of course when are vampires older, villein is more effective.
And I thing that Villein is the best blood manipulating card for decks with higher capacity vampires. For swarms is very good Tribute to the Master. But Minion Tap is not trifle and is expensive with Villeins in geme. Vessel and Blood Doll are slow. Yes, in some situations are Vessel and Blood Doll usable.
Villein is card which is hard to get. And a lot of players do not have it enough. I thing that this card is number one for reprinting as promo.

Dan

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09 Feb 2011 08:19 - 09 Feb 2011 08:26 #1220 by Shockwave
Replied by Shockwave on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN
Well, over 120(!) decks in 2010 used Dreams of the Sphinx. That's just shy of SIXTY percent. In recent years, that was a Rare:2 in Third Edition, and printed in one Starter in HTTB, as opposed to Villein, which was in ALL of the Starters, and an Uncommon in KOT. So obviously that's more important as a promo. Dreams of the Sphix as promo for 2011, vote now, vote for change, vote for terrible Gary Chatterton "artwork"!

As much as this is overflowing with sarcasm, some players will not have Dreams of the Sphinx, and by the logic used for asking for Villein, they're at more of a disadvantage by a long way in terms of their chance of getting a TWD than you are by not having Villein.

Will this finally drive the point home? Your definition of rarity is not necessarily shared by all players.

Aside:
Or, to be more flippant, there were 79 Copies of Tupdog in the TWD in 2010. As I own 1, and it's clearly a strong card that, without it, certain decks are impossible to play, I think it should be number one to be printed as a promo.

:AUS: :FOR: :VAL: Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
Last edit: 09 Feb 2011 08:26 by Shockwave.

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09 Feb 2011 08:20 #1221 by jhattara
Replied by jhattara on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN

Ok, point for you. I do not count percentage, look on last 15 decks and estimate it. But I thing that 30% is really high number.
I wasnt exact abbout decks with capacity 5 vasmpires. I want to say that decks with capacity 5 or higher works better with villeins. Of course when are vampires older, villein is more effective.
And I thing that Villein is the best blood manipulating card for decks with higher capacity vampires. For swarms is very good Tribute to the Master. But Minion Tap is not trifle and is expensive with Villeins in geme. Vessel and Blood Doll are slow. Yes, in some situations are Vessel and Blood Doll usable.
Villein is card which is hard to get. And a lot of players do not have it enough. I thing that this card is number one for reprinting as promo.

Dan


Villein is the best blood manipulating card. And it is better than Minion Tap. One notable thing is that before Villein, Minion Tap had a 26% share in TWDs (277 out of 1059), so Villein's share isn't that much larger. Sure, it replaced Minion Tap almost completely. Sure, it's used more than Minion Tap ever was. But still, it's only 1.2 times as common in TWDs as Minion Tap was before, and that's not too much. And Villein might be hard to get, but not impossible. I can immediately say that I have at least 5 Villeins that I can trade away, maybe even 7, if people are willing to part from some of their cards. That's almost enough for one player (assuming he isn't one of those who want to keep N+1 decks together and all without proxies).

:splat: Jussi Hattara :splat:
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09 Feb 2011 08:40 #1222 by Shockwave
Replied by Shockwave on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN

:AUS: :FOR: :VAL: Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981

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09 Feb 2011 10:14 #1223 by Suoli
Replied by Suoli on topic Re: Proxies and the VEKN

Well, over 120(!) decks in 2010 used Dreams of the Sphinx. That's just shy of SIXTY percent. In recent years, that was a Rare:2 in Third Edition, and printed in one Starter in HTTB, as opposed to Villein, which was in ALL of the Starters, and an Uncommon in KOT. So obviously that's more important as a promo. Dreams of the Sphix as promo for 2011, vote now, vote for change, vote for terrible Gary Chatterton "artwork"!

As much as this is overflowing with sarcasm, some players will not have Dreams of the Sphinx, and by the logic used for asking for Villein, they're at more of a disadvantage by a long way in terms of their chance of getting a TWD than you are by not having Villein.


1. The percentage of decks with Dreams does not tell us how many Dreams were played in total.
2. Dreams is available in Third Edition and Third Edition is highly available.
3. I've never seen a deck that depends on Dreams. Any deck in the TWDA that has Dreams can be played without it.

Will this finally drive the point home? Your definition of rarity is not necessarily shared by all players.


Sure. But if every player was told to make a list of 10 proxy candidates based on the criteria that it needs to be very hard to get and more than 1 copy is necessary for a high percentage of decks what card do you think would be the most common card on that list? Would it be viable to allow all the cards on every player's list or would it be a better idea to only consider the most popular suggestions?

Aside:
Or, to be more flippant, there were 79 Copies of Tupdog in the TWD in 2010. As I own 1, and it's clearly a strong card that, without it, certain decks are impossible to play, I think it should be number one to be printed as a promo.


1. "Certain decks" means rush, Nephandus, Rock Cat and that one vote deck. Not comparable in number to the certain decks that play Villein.
2. Tupdogs are available in LoB and LoB is highly available.

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