Proxies and the VEKN

Suoli wrote:

Honestly, Villein and Ashur Tablets are the only cards I would allow. And Ashur Tablets only barely.

So rather than advocate for an overly complicated "official" proxying of some nebulous number of desirable, hard to get cards, why not simply advocate for simple errata: all Minion Taps are now Villeins and leave it at that?

fojtik wrote:

Gargoylee wrote:

What "deck types" require Villeins, without which they are unplayable? As most things that I would call "deck types" existed prior to the first printing of Villein.

And I must say that I find it facinating that Villein is both available enough to make Minion Tap not an alternative and yet rare enough that it is one of your top choices for being made into a proxy.

Every deck which have vampires with 5 capacity or more works better with Villeins. Especially when Lilith's Blessing + Villein combo works really nice. Look at www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm - last year 80% of winning decks contains Villein.

Dan
(reprint Villein as promo)

Could I get some clarification as to what you are claiming?

First you are not asserting that the lack of Villeins makes any deck types unplayable? or are you saying that a lack of Villeins makes a certain deck type (a Lilith's Blessing + Villein combo deck) unplayable?


I don't agree that "every" deck which has capacity 5 vampires "works better" with Villeins. Villeins, or pool recapture, is arguably needed for higher capacity decks than for lower capacity decks. At what capacity Villein is better than Tribute to the Master, Vessel, Blood Doll, Minion Tap etc. might be 5 or it might be 8. I really don't know. If you have some math/evidence for your 5 capacity I would appreciate seeing it as it would improve my deck building.

Lastly,
(a) 80% of TWD from 2010;
(b) 80% of TWD from 2010 with a crypt average over 5; or
(c) 80% of TWD from 2010 with at least one crypt card with a capacity of 5+
contained Villeins?

It really sounds like (a) but I don't want to put arguments into your mouth.

It is worth noting that less than 30% of TWD from 2010 used Villein. (By my quick count 62 of 208 decks, but I only counted once and could be off by a few. If the handful of decks (5ish) had Villeins instead it would push the percentage closer to one third.)

bakija wrote:

Suoli wrote:

Honestly, Villein and Ashur Tablets are the only cards I would allow. And Ashur Tablets only barely.

So rather than advocate for an overly complicated "official" proxying of some nebulous number of desirable, hard to get cards,

If a majority of players feels that, say, Lilith's Blessing and Ashur Tablets are in the same class as Villein then allowing those should be considered as well. Nothing nebulous or overly complicated about it.

why not simply advocate for simple errata: all Minion Taps are now Villeins and leave it at that?

Using Minion Taps as Villein proxies is not really simpler than using photocopies of Villein. That would also deny a card from the 2-4 people who actually prefer Minion Tap in some cases.

Suoli wrote:

If a majority of players feels that, say, Lilith's Blessing and Ashur Tablets are in the same class as Villein then allowing those should be considered as well. Nothing nebulous or overly complicated about it.

What makes you think that the majority of players, once this can of worms gets opened, and has the choice to make, like, 50+ cards available as proxies, they wouldn't do that? Again, why stop at Villein and 2 other cards?

Using Minion Taps as Villein proxies is not really simpler than using photocopies of Villein. That would also deny a card from the 2-4 people who actually prefer Minion Tap in some cases.

Well, yes, there is that. I do think that using Minion Taps as Villeins is simpler than using photocopies of Villiens (for example, I don't use sleeved decks. I find the idea of having to sleeve all my decks just so I can take advantage of the hypothetical Villein proxies to be distasteful, aesthetically speaking). And yeah, some people woild be sad about losing Minion Tap. But really, we'd just be saving them from themselves.

bakija wrote:

Suoli wrote:

Using Minion Taps as Villein proxies is not really simpler than using photocopies of Villein. That would also deny a card from the 2-4 people who actually prefer Minion Tap in some cases.

Well, yes, there is that. I do think that using Minion Taps as Villeins is simpler than using photocopies of Villiens (for example, I don't use sleeved decks. I find the idea of having to sleeve all my decks just so I can take advantage of the hypothetical Villein proxies to be distasteful, aesthetically speaking). And yeah, some people woild be sad about losing Minion Tap. But really, we'd just be saving them from themselves.

It also gets around the copyright issues of using fake Villeins.

But if less than 30% of the TWD from 2010 even used Villeins, is it really in as much demand as people are claiming?