Assamites with presence

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Immortal Grapple and minion stealing have been in the game since 1994. V:TES was designed to have trump cards and deck archetypes that tend to fare better than others. It is what it is. I find it funny that V:TES attracts the arm-chair game designer type who wants to “fix” everything. What is the point of playing a game only to complain about its faults? Just go design your own game already.

At this point, the game has no official designers. I guess Ben Peal and the others should just give up and stop being the armchair admirals that they are. Maybe they should just go design their own game rather than continue to produce card for us to enjoy. Did you ever fault LSJ for continuing a project started by Richard Garfield (and others) rather than making his own game?

Also, VTES is 20+ years old. If you gave me a 20 year old computer, would you really expect that I wouldn't suggest changes? Would you really be insulted when I hinted that it could be improved by a new CPU? That's how I view the game - a well built core that has some fantastic and unique ideas, but some rotted branches that may have made sense 20 years ago, but don't (to my mind) anymore. This is particularly germane given the possibility that VTES will be picked up by a publisher or even relaunched.

Even if the ideas come to naught, it keeps people thinking about the game, which I consider to be rather important at the moment. So I would personally encourage people to toy with the game mentally as a way to keep invested in the game and to keep their flagging interest in the game alive.

@Tworazor
"Immortal Grapple and minion stealing have been in the game since 1994."

Yes, and Temptation of Greater Power, one of the original minion stealing cards was just banned. Why? Minion stealing is very swingy and this card was determined to be overpowered. Spirit Mirionnette wouldn't be a problem if Heidelberg didn't exist or was errated to only work on vampires you permanently control. Heck, Spirit Marionnette could just change the stolen minion into the acting minion in that action. However it is done I would like to see something happen.

"V:TES was designed to have trump cards and deck archetypes that tend to fare better than others."

Rather than chase our tail all day and play rock-scissors-paper with hosers I would like the balance of existing cards be altered. If "combat ends" means "skip to the press step" or "ignore any damage and effects from the opposing minion's strike," then combat gets more interesting with presses, maneuvers, prevent, etc being more useful in general. Combats that involve a lot of back and forth are the most interesting in my experience. Altering Combat Ends and banning IG does not remove archetypes from the game, it only changes how cards work for them. If Ventrue Lawfirm plays Majesty with the proposed change, then unless the opponent presses, uses an additional strike or environmental damage it works the same as before, untap and do some other nasty action. Now the Ventrue lawfirm has more incentive to play presses, prevent, even additional strikes. Immortal Grapple prevents players from doing all of the interesting things that you can do with strikes, which can vary greatly from Crows, Soak, Blur, and Psyche.


"It is what it is."

I mostly agree. I don't think VTES will see major rules changes. Some future game that may or may not be compatible with VTES might address these problems. VTES is what it is: often disappointing.

"I find it funny that V:TES attracts the arm-chair game designer type who wants to “fix” everything. What is the point of playing a game only to complain about its faults? Just go design your own game already."

It isn't only VTES that attracts critical attention. VTES is a complex game that has lots of things, many of which could use tweaking. 22 years ago was probably the time to make some changes, it is much harder now. The criticism you seem to be offering it is "if you don't like it shut up or stop playing." That's not constructive. There have been many rules changes over the years and design decisions, all of which have involved seeing the game a little differently.

I like the World of Darkness setting and have purchased and enjoyed their computer games, card games and RPGs. I would be interested to see what else people can come up with as far as new games.

Part of deckbuilding is taking into account metagame. When designing decks deckbuider should think about popular archetypes and cards that he will face and ways of dealing with them.
Let's assume there is no IG in the game. There will be some other strong effects that deck needs to deal with. You can't design decks in limbo and then complain about cards, rules, etc. that make it weak. There will be always some constraints you need to adress if you want your deck to be competetive.
To not make my whole post philosophical; there is number of good ways to deal with spirit marionnette: intercept, staying tapped or just play secure heaven.

"Part of deckbuilding is taking into account metagame. When designing decks deckbuider should think about popular archetypes and cards that he will face and ways of dealing with them."

Ok.

"Let's assume there is no IG in the game. There will be some other strong effects that deck needs to deal with. You can't design decks in limbo and then complain about cards, rules, etc. that make it weak. There will be always some constraints you need to adress if you want your deck to be competetive."

First of all, yay. Second, did you read what I wrote?

"To not make my whole post philosophical; there is number of good ways to deal with spirit marionnette: intercept, staying tapped or just play secure heaven."

IG is easier to metagame against than Spirit Marionnette + Heidelberg. At least with IG you are likely to be able to prevent the damage to your minion and may even be able to DI the grapple (hey, I'm hosing a hoser card! woohoo!). The best way to metagame against having your first minion drained before you get a chance to act is probably to play a ton of Suddens and intercept. If I don't have 15-20 card slots (i.e. princes with 12 second traditions, 8 suddens) to dedicate to that or get a bad draw (or my opponent gets a better draw than I do), then my efforts don't matter. I want to meta against IG as well? Ok, do I play Skin of Steel or Superior Mettle? Add 12+ copies of that, maybe a police station. If I have enough superior fortitude I can get by with Rolling with the Punches. Now that 1/3+ of my deck is dedicated to not being hosed, what do I actually want to play?

Is this why stickmen do so well? Dominate provides an efficient offence, while a solid 1/3 + of the deck is dedicated to combat and intercept. Don't forget bounce. This meta feels pretty restrictive to me, unless I can get lucky.

Very strong defense capabilities are for sure part of stickmen success. But there are is a loooot of other decks that do not use that many defensive cards and are equally succesfull. They instead rely on speed, minion advantage, hit back, etc. Also I don't see that much spirit marionette decks on tournament in my area. If it's very often seen during your games just put one more secure haven and 2 pentexes. Those will not only protect you against a lot of other problems but also provide extra offensive capabilities (I mean Pentex). To be honest I always put at least one copy of pentex subversion in every deck.

alek wrote:

Very strong defense capabilities are for sure part of stickmen success. But there are is a loooot of other decks that do not use that many defensive cards and are equally succesfull. They instead rely on speed, minion advantage, hit back, etc. Also I don't see that much spirit marionette decks on tournament in my area. If it's very often seen during your games just put one more secure haven and 2 pentexes. Those will not only protect you against a lot of other problems but also provide extra offensive capabilities (I mean Pentex). To be honest I always put at least one copy of pentex subversion in every deck.

Agreed about Pentex. I never play Secure Haven, maybe it is time to throw in a copy along with Pentex. A big difference between the two is Pentex's offensive usefulness.