Assamites with presence

Tried to ignore it, but this comparison annoys the crap out of me.

brettscho wrote:

Also, VTES is 20+ years old. If you gave me a 20 year old computer, would you really expect that I wouldn't suggest changes?

Classic apple/orange comparison... Perhaps you should compare it to another strategy table top game, lets say mmh, I don't know, Chess? I'm pretty sure people have been pretty miffed with the weird funky moves a Knight can make over the last few hundred years...

As for the computer comparison, I totally agree, the cards should've been made of a biodegradable sustainable plastic thats slightly sanded for good grip by now!

Yarrr!

Thats it, carry on with everyones favourite whine debate Who knows, it might sprout some fruit, wether it be apples or oranges.

What would be interesting and maybe even valuable is to find out what mechanics (cards, sets, deck archetypes, clans, disciplines, etc.) are actually people's most favorite and least favorite, so that the game can adapt to what is more fun and leave fewer options that tend to be less effective to minority interests. Some players don't care about these things, having the mentality along the lines of "Whatever is available is what I try to build the best deck out of." or whatever and may feel that removing something is "dumbing down the game", but you can't avoid criticism.

I'm not sure who exactly you are responding to in this thread, but you seem to be very knowledgeable about CCGs and the players who play them. The first post in this thread was someone posting a deck and whining how it's not competitive because the game is flawed. This person was criticizing the game in a petulant way, and then went on to claim that the game is disappointing. I'm really interested in finding out why a person plays a game they clearly don't enjoy. This psychology seems to be prevalent among VTES players. Are people just hate-playing a flawed game? If their suggested "fixes" get implemented, will they even still play, or would they no longer play because they'll have nothing to complain about? Is this psychology common among other CCGs, or is it just VTES? I'm not joking when I ask these questions, I really do find this topic fascinating.

It is common among other CCGs.

I used to complain a lot about the CCGs I played, hoping for some sort of idealized version that would optimize my fun. But, I don't know if what I wanted to happen would actually make them the way I wanted, even if certain, specific changes seemed to have a high probability of making CCGs less unfun. I may still do some complaining, but I don't feel like I have any control over what a game will be like given that I didn't have a huge impact on changing games I was playtesting or, even, designing for. Part of this lack of control is too many other voices that want something different. Part of it is inertia - once you print something, people tend to think of it as part of the game, which is something I was addressing. Some card games can rotate out or reset the card pool, but I'm not necessarily a fan of the former and the latter sounds rather annoying.

I also have less reason to complain about with V:TES and the other CCG I currently play. The latter because I don't have the history with the game and the investment in how it evolved over time. With V:TES, I'm a bit late to the party for a veteran, starting only in 1996, but I still quite enjoy playing the game, even if there are lots of cards I dislike seeing played.

Plenty of people bitch and moan but like playing a game, which is the camp I'd put myself. What concerns me is when local players bitch and moan and truly seem to not enjoy the game often enough to not want to keep playing. It's hard enough keeping a group playing when people prioritize other aspects of life, but, when they actually dislike playing, then they really shouldn't be. I only held on to playing one CCG I found to be unpleasant to play because I don't tend to stop doing things I do, well, and for a time I was designing for the game.

I would not have posted the original post in this thread because it's not really about building a deck, so it confuses the point trying to be made. Well, that, and I'm perfectly happy to build Assamites with ... Vicissitude, Abombwe, Spiritus ... because deckbuilding can get very stale if only ever worrying about what's best, especially with a game like this that sees relatively little shake up with the card pool, even when WW was printing sets.

ICL wrote:

With V:TES, I'm a bit late to the party for a veteran, starting only in 1996,

LOL

With '96 I'd certainly consider you a grognard...