Another Summon History Q

In either case, your meta is not a representation of what the actual game looks like and thus can be completely ignored when it comes to balancing cards.

Ignored? Why? Our meta is as different as every other is. We have much more table talk than usual - that's all.

And I guess your meta is pure representation of game balance...

Well, Anka, Segregation needs to be in deck, needs to be drawn, needs to be called, then needs to pass, then needs a player that will want to keep all of his minions... and that is a plenty of "needs" to lose 15 pool. And I guess that Imbued will suffer more than any Gangrel Garou deck with three werevolves... Not.

This card is completely unusable against most decks and, in my opinion, would not be overpowered if it would work with 'influence pay' also.

On the other hand, Enochians probably cannot be canceled as played and it can burn at least one weenie before leaving play.

Also, there is a total of five Kindred Segregation cards on TWDA making it one of MVP cards of VtES.

PS - on topic:
I found the card that burns crypt cards.... Yeeeeey. It's Goodnight Sweet Prince... You just need one Ravnos, also pullable with Summon...

Megabaja wrote:

In either case, your meta is not a representation of what the actual game looks like and thus can be completely ignored when it comes to balancing cards.

Ignored? Why? Our meta is as different as every other is. We have much more table talk than usual - that's all.

Your meta varies significantly from the standard. While I wouldn't go far enough to agree that your meta can be ignored, it doesn't have nearly as much relevance when it comes to game balance as others, because it is so uncommon. If VTES has to choose between being properly balanced for your games, or for the majority of games, it's an easy choice.

Segregation needs to be in deck, needs to be drawn, needs to be called,

This applies to literally any card ever, and is therefore a ridiculously horrible argument.

then needs to pass,

You've already mentioned earlier that Imbued offer no real cross table support, and have no votes. If this card hits a table with an imbued deck, it will pass because no one has any real incentive to keep the Imbued alive.

then needs a player that will want to keep all of his minions... and that is a plenty of "needs" to lose 15 pool.

That is plenty of "needs", yes. But the first few "needs" qualify for every card and the next "need" is almost automatic. The last "need" comes between 'Will I pay a lot of pool to keep my Imbued or will I just try to play the game without any minions?' Either way, its a loss.

And I guess that Imbued will suffer more than any Gangrel Garou deck with three werevolves... Not.

I'll be honest, I know nothing about Gangrel Garou decks, so I can't say much on this point. But I assume that Gangrel need to be ready to play the allies, whereas most Imbued decks run few or no vampires. So the Gangrel deck loses a lot of resources, but still has at least one ready minion. The Imbued don't have anything left.

This card is completely unusable against most decks and, in my opinion, would not be overpowered if it would work with 'influence pay' also.

Several decks run allies, but I will agree that it is pretty useless. However, it immediately shuts down an Imbued deck (and, apparenttly, a Gangrel Garou deck), thereby making it "overpowered".

On the other hand, Enochians probably cannot be canceled as played and it can burn at least one weenie before leaving play.

Yes, and it takes a very long time to do a severe amount of damage. A long enough time that, in average games, you'll be dead before that point if you haven't ousted the Methuselah controlling it, as was already proposed. Also, against an Imbued deck, as I've already said, though Segregation can be canceled, it won't be, because no one has anything to gain by doing so (save the Imbued deck itself).

This applies to literally any card ever, and is therefore a ridiculously horrible argument.

No it doesn't - It's much easier to draw Govern the Unaligned than this card. Assume you have only one copy of it (I never saw more than one in a deck). You need to call it (and imbued have easy access to +1 intercept, and determine). Then it needs to pass (imbued have a minion of capacity 4 that has three votes against)even if no other players would help (guess why?). Then you need to choose to keep 3-4 minions. I you reached the point of the game where you should burn 15 pool and all other Methusaleh's agree on that, you should ask yourself if you are playing right game... Same goes for MonoUna, Nergal crap and Cybelotron.

On the other hand you need to draw Enochians, and as you play it, you immediately burn one weenie. One of your choice, not owners, even a Justicar in a weenie vote.

I have no intention to defend my standpoint for a deck that most of players do not want in their games. While I'm not such hater that I would consider putting Segregation in my decks, I would admire 'till death people who would. Same goes for people who play Whispers of the Nictuku or similar stuff...

But I assume that Gangrel need to be ready to play the allies, whereas most Imbued decks run few or no vampires.

That is really a question for Imbued players. There is plenty of vampires in groups 3,4 and 5. Nobody said it was illegal to mix vampires and imbued.

as I've already said, though Segregation can be canceled, it won't be, because no one has anything to gain by doing so (save the Imbued deck itself).

We agree on that. Same stands for Cybele and Pentex, but nobody thinks Pentex is overpowered just because it hoses one or two decks with star vampires. It is my general point that, if the rest of the table agrees on a single oust, then oust should be completed as soon as possible, so the game might continues in normal manner (which is a rare scene on the tables with Imbued)

Let's draw a parallel - Talking about Kindred Segregation being overpowered (if used as I suggest) in the case of Imbued, is like arguing that Archon Investigation is overpowered versus Lucian, the Perfect as a star vampire of your deck.

What I want to say is:
Kindred Segregation clearly says - "Burn all allies. Any Methuselah can keep an ally or allies he or she controls by repaying their pool cost to recruit."

If you follow card by text, you should burn all allies. The you could keep them by repaying their pool cost. Imbued do not have pool cost, so they cannot be saved from burning. This is logical. Ruling as it is ruled now, rules consistency was broken.
Saying that something is allowed just because it has no written text is like, say, using Horrific Countenance after combat just because it has no text barring it.

Megabaja wrote:

What I want to say is:
Kindred Segregation clearly says - "Burn all allies. Any Methuselah can keep an ally or allies he or she controls by repaying their pool cost to recruit."

If you follow card by text, you should burn all imbued.

No. If you follow YOUR interpretation of rules reading which is neither the current reading nor logical nor consistent, they should burn.

Megabaja wrote:

This applies to literally any card ever, and is therefore a ridiculously horrible argument.

No it doesn't - It's much easier to draw Govern the Unaligned than this card. Assume you have only one copy of it (I never saw more than one in a deck).

Alright, that is a good point. But if you're expecting an Imbued deck at the table and this card gets ruled as you want it to, you'd be ridiculous not to run multiple copies of it. Even if you don't draw it as often as Govern the Unaligned, you still have a great chance of drawing it by turn eight or so (assuming it takes that long for the Imbued to make a strong presence).

You need to call it (and imbued have easy access to +1 intercept, and determine).

That's true, but only applies if the imbued is your prey/predator. Otherwise, it passes automatically. And, as I said before, if Imbued are expected to make an appearance, every deck that can reasonably fit it in should run a couple of copies, so someone cross-table should get one off.

Then it needs to pass (imbued have a minion of capacity 4 that has three votes against)even if no other players would help (guess why?).

Okay, Maman Boumba does have a potential three votes. Let's add one to that from the edge that the Imbued might have. Four votes is the absolute maximum an Imbued player can ever get. You get one automatically from playing the card, if four votes exist on the table, if you have any vote boost in your hand, if someone other than the Imbued player has the edge, or if other players have their own vote cards in their hand to discard, the vote passes.

Then you need to choose to keep 3-4 minions. I you reached the point of the game where you should burn 15 pool and all other Methusaleh's agree on that, you should ask yourself if you are playing right game... Same goes for MonoUna, Nergal crap and Cybelotron.

You can either choose to lose all the pool, cards, and time used getting your Imbued into play, or you can give up essentially all of your remaining pool. And the game is played as someone wants to play the game. There have always been decks where the entire table wants you dead. That's just part of the game. It's supposed to be self-balancing, because the most hated, threatening decks are targeted by the entire table. It doesn't need a rather easy-to-play vote that instantly defeats the deck.

On the other hand you need to draw Enochians, and as you play it, you immediately burn one weenie. One of your choice, not owners, even a Justicar in a weenie vote.

Yes, and lets see how that would likely go with a couple of weenie decks.
Dominate: The Methuselah with Enochians is bled to death by the focused power of five weenies. Enochians goes away forever after defeating one weenie.
Presence: The Methuselah with Enochians is ousted through votes by the power of (likely) three-to-four weenies. Enochians goes away forever after defeating two or three weenies.
Potence: After a long amount of time, with several minions still being torpored, the weenie potence player loses his last minion. During that time, assuming every one of his vampires torps another vampire each turn, 15 vampires have been sent to torpor.

On the other hand, Kindred Segregation with your ruling instantly defeats the Imbued deck, or cripples it to the point of making it impossible for the Imbued to win. Enochians do significant damage to a weenie deck over time, but weenie dominate and presence still have pretty reasonable chances of surviving. (Obviously my examples have no data behind them, but are used as rhetorical examples of how it reasonably could play out)

I have no intention to defend my standpoint for a deck that most of players do not want in their games. While I'm not such hater that I would consider putting Segregation in my decks, I would admire 'till death people who would. Same goes for people who play Whispers of the Nictuku or similar stuff...

If people don't want it in their games, they should concentrate their efforts into ousting it. I hate weenie bleed decks, and there was always a guy at our local games who ran weenie dementation. After the first couple of games, everyone began teaming up on him, rushing his minions and crippling him with votes. Because that's what should happen when the entire table hates one player. There is no need to create a card that instantly destroys a hated deck, because the Methuselahs should have to take some effort to defeat a deck, regardless of how much they hate playing with it.

But I assume that Gangrel need to be ready to play the allies, whereas most Imbued decks run few or no vampires.

That is really a question for Imbued players. There is plenty of vampires in groups 3,4 and 5. Nobody said it was illegal to mix vampires and imbued.

No its not, it's just not common. It's also not illegal for every deck to run !Toreador, but it would be stupid for every deck to run Obsession, just in case. People can play whatever they want, but strong decks have to work well together, and Imbued work better with Imbued than vampires. Running random cards just because it's not illegal will easily cripple your deck.

as I've already said, though Segregation can be canceled, it won't be, because no one has anything to gain by doing so (save the Imbued deck itself).

We agree on that. Same stands for Cybele and Pentex, but nobody thinks Pentex is overpowered just because it hoses one or two decks with star vampires. It is my general point that, if the rest of the table agrees on a single oust, then oust should be completed as soon as possible, so the game might continues in normal manner (which is a rare scene on the tables with Imbued)

The game is defined by what's on the table. I've said it several times before and justified my point, so all I'll repeat is that a hated deck knows it goes into the game 4-vs-1, which is often crippling enough to not need a 100% hosing card.

Let's draw a parallel - Talking about Kindred Segregation being overpowered (if used as I suggest) in the case of Imbued, is like arguing that Archon Investigation is overpowered versus Lucian, the Perfect as a star vampire of your deck.

I can understand your parallel, but still disagree with it, because an Archon Investigation on Lucian is not an instant defeat. You still have other vampires, and while your deck has suffered a huge loss, you have a chance at making a comeback. The Imbued deck loses everything at once, and has no chance at a comeback.

Kindred Segregation clearly says - "Burn all allies. Any Methuselah can keep an ally or allies he or she controls by repaying their pool cost to recruit."

If you follow card by text, you should burn all allies. The you could keep them by repaying their pool cost. Imbued do not have pool cost, so they cannot be saved from burning. This is logical. Ruling as it is ruled now, rules consistency was broken.
Saying that something is allowed just because it has no written text is like, say, using Horrific Countenance after combat just because it has no text barring it.

Imbued are allies. They have no pool cost. Ergo, their pool cost is zero. Horrific Countenance is not a combat card. It has no text allowing it after combat. Ergo, it cannot be played after combat.

Zero is not equivalent to unplayable.