Another Summon History Q

@121

I can understand your parallel, but still disagree with it, because an Archon Investigation on Lucian is not an instant defeat.

Really? Have you tried to play with 11 pool less? At least three turns to influence this vampire back, keeping in mind that he can rarely act before fourth turn, pretty much ends your game. You do not want a game with seven turns without your star vampire.

You still have other vampires, and while your deck has suffered a huge loss, you have a chance at making a comeback. The Imbued deck loses everything at once, and has no chance at a comeback.

As I previously wrote, you lose as much pool as is the cost of minions you want to keep. If you want to keep everyone, well that's expensive. Same goes for Big Guns Deck with Peace Treaty or Guillaume Giovanni and Jericho Founding. If you want to keep your minion at any cost, the worst card is Temptation of Greater Power.

@Anka:

Playing a card that would deal 15 pool of damage to an Imbued (and handle other allies decks) would most probably find some slots.

I guess that you do not put Temptation of Greater Power in every justicar deck just because it can potentially damage some decks.

@Ohlmann:

[tem] Search your library and/or ash heap for an ally, retainer or equipment whose cost is X or less. Put that card in play (on this vampire and with starting life from the bank as needed).

Any Methuselah can keep an ally or allies he or she controls by repaying their pool cost to recruit.

If imbued are allies and their cost is 0 in case of Segregation, how comes that their cost is their capacity in the case of Summon History? If Mylan the Goblin is an ally, and his cost is the same in case of both cards, how comes that, in case of any Imbued - that is an ally also, this cost is different for Kindred Segregation and Summon History? If the cost to recruit is looked at in case of Segregation, then it should be looked in case of Summon History also.

Megabaja wrote:

@121

I can understand your parallel, but still disagree with it, because an Archon Investigation on Lucian is not an instant defeat.

Really? Have you tried to play with 11 pool less? At least three turns to influence this vampire back, keeping in mind that he can rarely act before fourth turn, pretty much ends your game. You do not want a game with seven turns without your star vampire.

I agree with your point here. Right now, all we're arguing over on this topic is the subjective opinion on whether losing Lucian is comparable or not to losing all Imbued. I have nothing new to add now, but feel free to continue discussing this point if you would like to add anything more.

You still have other vampires, and while your deck has suffered a huge loss, you have a chance at making a comeback. The Imbued deck loses everything at once, and has no chance at a comeback.

As I previously wrote, you lose as much pool as is the cost of minions you want to keep. If you want to keep everyone, well that's expensive. Same goes for Big Guns Deck with Peace Treaty or Guillaume Giovanni and Jericho Founding. If you want to keep your minion at any cost, the worst card is Temptation of Greater Power.

Yes, but assuming they don't want to keep all of their minions, they lose several turns worth of time and resources. The Big Guns Deck still has acting minions, as much as it has suffered. Guillaume Giovanni loses his extra hand size, but can still act. The Imbued deck has to choose between paying several pool or giving up its ability to act. At this point, the Imbued player has to give up around eight pool for the privilege of continuing the game with two minions.

And I will agree, Temptation of Greater Power is the worst for minion wiping. But it's a master card (generally more powerful), requires a ready justicar, and you have a chance to bid for your own minion. And I know that you can pay for your own minion with Kindred Segregation, but the significant difference is that Kindred Segregation removes all minions instead of one and only the Imbued player suffers from it. With Temptation of Greater Power, whoever attempts to steal your minion has to pay a great amount of pool.

@Anka:

Playing a card that would deal 15 pool of damage to an Imbued (and handle other allies decks) would most probably find some slots.

I guess that you do not put Temptation of Greater Power in every justicar deck just because it can potentially damage some decks.

For reasons already discussed, players really hate Imbued decks. If a card instantly defeats Imbued decks, why not remove a card already in your deck that slightly damages them in exchange for an instant defeat?

@Ohlmann:

[tem] Search your library and/or ash heap for an ally, retainer or equipment whose cost is X or less. Put that card in play (on this vampire and with starting life from the bank as needed).

Any Methuselah can keep an ally or allies he or she controls by repaying their pool cost to recruit.

If imbued are allies and their cost is 0 in case of Segregation, how comes that their cost is their capacity in the case of Summon History? If Mylan the Goblin is an ally, and his cost is the same in case of both cards, how comes that, in case of any Imbued - that is an ally also, this cost is different for Kindred Segregation and Summon History? If the cost to recruit is looked at in case of Segregation, then it should be looked in case of Summon History also.

For whatever reason, 'cost' and 'recruit cost' are ruled as two separate things (possibly to prevent this very scenario of Kindred Segregation being broken). For Imbued, cost = capacity (Because that is the total influence required to control the Imbued). Recruit cost = 0 (Because when you bring an Imbued out, you technically pay no pool. All you have done is transfer pool).

Since Summon History says 'cost', the Imbued must have a capacity of X or less. Since Kindred Segregation says 'recruit cost', you must pay 0 to keep every Imbued alive (or, theoretically, you could allow any of your Imbued to burn by refusing to pay the recruit cost of 0).

As for Mylan Horseed, since he is not an Imbued, his cost = recruit cost = 1. Therefore, you must pay one to play him with Summon History or to keep him alive after a Kindred Segregation.