file "As Played" Window Ruling Contradictions?

27 Jul 2012 15:13 - 01 Aug 2012 15:36 #33874 by Dorrinal
I was attempting to answer the question: can a minion with superior Maleficia wake and play Evil Eye to cancel an action? I found the following rules on the rulings page.

A card can be canceled "as it is played" (with Sudden Reversal, Direct Intervention, etc.) only as it is played. The only cards that can be played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the time. You cannot use the Barrens after a master card is played, for example, to attempt to draw into a Sudden Reversal to cancel it. [RTR 20040501]

This appears to contradict the following ruling:

"As played" (a phrase used by many card-canceling effects) comes after the card in question is fully announced and before the effect the play generates. In general, no card or effect can be used in this window. The only ones that can be arethe effects that say so, and Wake-style effects that enable such cards to be played ("may play reaction cards" effects, not "untap self" or other effects). [RTR]

There is no link or record of when this ruling was made. The only ruling I found to corroborate this exception was in 2001 for Rewind Time at inferior Temporis - which would have been overturned by the 2004 ruling. But as they both stand on the rulings page, I must infer that wakes are an exception to the 2004 ruling.

Pascal: it would be helpful if you could clear up my confusion about the second ruling by updating the rules page. And if it is true that you can wake and cancel, but not use the barrens and cancel, what is the justification for the exception?

===

UPDATE: official answer here

SUMMARY: The two rulings do not contradict each other. The ruling from 2004 makes it explicit that only cards-in-hand can be used to cancel a card as it is played. It does not say which cards-in-hand can or can not be played, just that they have to be in hand. Therefore it does not contradict the 2001 ruling, which only identifies the exception to the rule, namely that wakes can be played to enable a "cancel as played" card.
  • 2001: You can play a wake to cancel a card as played...
  • 2004: but the cards must be in your hand.

:trem:
Last edit: 01 Aug 2012 15:36 by Dorrinal.

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27 Jul 2012 19:17 - 27 Jul 2012 19:18 #33876 by Ankha
I don't see any contradiction.
First ruling states that you must have the canceling card in hand at the moment the card is played. You can't use Barrens in order to draw it.

Second ruling states that there are very little cards you can play during the "as played" window, and that the wake-cards are one of those.

Wake-cards are quite special because they allow to play other cards, so they must be playable during the same windows at those other cards.

Since Rewind Time can be played during the "as played" window, the wake cards that allow to play Rewind Time must be also playable at that time.

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Last edit: 27 Jul 2012 19:18 by Ankha.

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27 Jul 2012 20:41 #33878 by Dorrinal
According to my research, the "second" ruling was made in 2001, which means it was overturned by the 2004 RTR. I am asking Pascal to clarify the situation and update the web page accordingly.

:trem:
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28 Jul 2012 08:46 #33893 by Ohlmann
Dorrinal, I would like you to explain where there is a contradiction. the two thing you cite don't interact one with another.

There is a caveat : by what you have excavated, you can't play a wake and use a rewind time you draw as replacement. It's the only problematic point I see by your explanation.
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28 Jul 2012 09:46 - 28 Jul 2012 10:18 #33895 by Boris The Blade

Wake-cards are quite special because they allow to play other cards, so they must be playable during the same windows at those other cards.

That is not a good justification. Untap effects also allow to play reactions per the rules. Effects that give blood allow to play cards that cost blood. Effects that give temporary access to a discipline (or any trait or title) allow to play cards with that requirement. And so on. There is nothing special about wakes that warrants an exception.

Since Rewind Time can be played during the "as played" window, the wake cards that allow to play Rewind Time must be also playable at that time.

That reasoning is flawed because there are already reactions that cannot be played on a wake, Irregular Protocol for example. There is no obligation for Rewind Time to be playable on a wake. That would not break the game and would not even make Rewind Time significantly weaker since the True Brujah already have access to a lot of proactive untap.

Actually, if the game was completely cleaned up, Rewind Time should not even be a Reaction but a Reflex along all other cancel cards.
Last edit: 28 Jul 2012 10:18 by Boris The Blade.

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28 Jul 2012 12:14 #33897 by Ankha

Wake-cards are quite special because they allow to play other cards, so they must be playable during the same windows at those other cards.

That is not a good justification. Untap effects also allow to play reactions per the rules. Effects that give blood allow to play cards that cost blood. Effects that give temporary access to a discipline (or any trait or title) allow to play cards with that requirement. And so on. There is nothing special about wakes that warrants an exception.

Since Rewind Time can be played during the "as played" window, the wake cards that allow to play Rewind Time must be also playable at that time.

That reasoning is flawed because there are already reactions that cannot be played on a wake, Irregular Protocol for example. There is no obligation for Rewind Time to be playable on a wake. That would not break the game and would not even make Rewind Time significantly weaker since the True Brujah already have access to a lot of proactive untap.

I didn't say it was a good justification or not, it's just the "official" justification from LSJ. groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/nW1DuhwyCc0/JdlPQ-oz2twJ
Can't find again the topic he explained why it was that way, but someone may find it.

Actually, if the game was completely cleaned up, Rewind Time should not even be a Reaction but a Reflex along all other cancel cards.

No, because "Reflexes only cancel cards played on the minion. [1.6.3]" (LSJ)

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