file "As Played" Window Ruling Contradictions?

31 Jul 2012 05:36 - 31 Jul 2012 05:38 #33987 by er-principe


Wake with Evening's Freshness + sup' Evil Eye to cancel an action card.
On the Qui Vive + sup' Evil Eye works, but remember that, in the "as played" window, cards aren't replaced (as written in the rulebook and in your first link).


So, basically, you if you wake, say, during the "as played" window to cancel a card you will replace a forced awakening only after you play a rewind time (already in your hand) to cancel an action card with it?
Seems rather odd (to replace a card only after playing another card in the
given "as played" window - to better clear to me "as played" should just
correspond to -> "as replaced" with no other utter windows in between)

You're not reading it the right way.

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

You can play Forced Awakening, but you won't replace it until after the 'as played' window closes. This is not related to the fact that you have an Evil Eye in your hand.


I've read carefully and in fact i find odd the rule (as stated, to me "as played should correspond to an "as replaced" with no other rule window delaying the play/replace process, other than explicit card text ("do not replace until..."))

Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
Last edit: 31 Jul 2012 05:38 by er-principe.

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31 Jul 2012 10:28 #33999 by jamesatzephyr

I've read carefully and in fact i find odd the rule (as stated, to me "as played should correspond to an "as replaced" with no other rule window delaying the play/replace process, other than explicit card text ("do not replace until..."))


There need to be at least two distinct steps here.

First, you play the card. When you play it, you announce what the effects are before redrawing and people get a chance to cancel ("as it is played").

Then you redraw it.

This means that you can't (for example) play Villein, draw Giant's Blood, then decide to empty the vampire.



Now, in theory, you could split things up to:

1) Play the card and announce the effects
=2a) Cancel the card as played
=2b) Replace the card
3) Announce the action (if it was an action card) - Seduction goes here

(With 2a and 2b being simultaneous, in this hypothetical reformulation.)

Except that the rulebook says 1) happens "when it is played" and card text says cancellation happens "as it is played", and those two things mean pretty much exactly the same thing. So an intuition that splits 1) from 2a) is a bit odd, when the wording more-or-less implies they're the same thing. And then since 1) has to happen before 2b), 2a) also happens before 2b).

(Theoretically, you could argue for a difference between "when..." and "as...", in that "as..." potentially implies the thing taking a period of time when "when..." is more agnostic. But that would be really clutching at straws.)



Additionally, I find that players playing a potentially controversial card will do something like:

"Queen Anne plays Parity Shift."
*put Parity Shift on the table*
*tap Queen Anne*
*put hand on top of library ready to re-draw*
"Any DIs? [pause for input] Okay..."
*draws top card of library*

Which works pretty well as a visual.

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31 Jul 2012 10:52 #34002 by Pascal Bertrand

"Queen Anne plays Parity Shift."
*put Parity Shift on the table*
*tap Queen Anne*
*put hand on top of library ready to re-draw*
"Any DIs? [pause for input] Okay..."
*draws top card of library*

Which works pretty well as a visual.

It's better than replacing your Villein before announcing it's for 9, but in this example, Queen Anne doesn't tap until post-DI state.

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31 Jul 2012 11:00 - 31 Jul 2012 11:01 #34003 by jamesatzephyr

"Queen Anne plays Parity Shift."
*put Parity Shift on the table*
*tap Queen Anne*
*put hand on top of library ready to re-draw*
"Any DIs? [pause for input] Okay..."
*draws top card of library*

Which works pretty well as a visual.

It's better than replacing your Villein before announcing it's for 9, but in this example, Queen Anne doesn't tap until post-DI state.


Strictly yes, but much like the "Isabel de Leon will block, slightly nudge her towards tapped to make sure everyone can see what's going on", I find that people often do this visually.

I have also seen people put their fingers on the would-be acting vampire, ready to tap it when the Parity Shift isn't DI-ed, but generally I've noticed that less.


(It's obviously not really necessary in an online system with a text commentary as to what's just been announced.)
Last edit: 31 Jul 2012 11:01 by jamesatzephyr.

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31 Jul 2012 11:21 - 31 Jul 2012 11:23 #34007 by er-principe

I've read carefully and in fact i find odd the rule (as stated, to me "as played should correspond to an "as replaced" with no other rule window delaying the play/replace process, other than explicit card text ("do not replace until..."))


There need to be at least two distinct steps here.

First, you play the card. When you play it,


About "you play a card" rulebook also states:Drawing Cards. Whenever you play a library card from your hand, you immediately draw another from your library to replace it

"immediately" lead to some misunderstandings given the other rule cited ("cancel as it played") in the timing window "as played"

To be clearer, as much as you can't use a drawn-sudden-via-barrens to cancel a master card being played, imho there's should be no chanche on the "as played" window of playing a reaction card to wake and *then* another reaction to cancel another card
Also, i find the other rule somewhat odd and little conflicting with the other rulebook sentence about "immediately replacing the card" , which can lead to some misunderstandings

Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
Last edit: 31 Jul 2012 11:23 by er-principe.

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31 Jul 2012 11:30 #34008 by Ankha

I've read carefully and in fact i find odd the rule (as stated, to me "as played should correspond to an "as replaced" with no other rule window delaying the play/replace process, other than explicit card text ("do not replace until..."))


There need to be at least two distinct steps here.

First, you play the card. When you play it,


About "you play a card" rulebook also states:Drawing Cards. Whenever you play a library card from your hand, you immediately draw another from your library to replace it

"immediately" lead to some misunderstandings given the other rule cited ("cancel as it played") in the timing window "as played"

To be clearer, as much as you can't use a drawn-sudden-via-barrens to cancel a master card being played, imho there's should be no chanche on the "as played" window of playing a reaction card to wake and *then* another reaction to cancel another card
Also, i find the other rule somewhat odd and little conflicting with the other rulebook sentence about "immediately replacing the card" , which can lead to some misunderstandings

Do cards stating "do not replace until" lead to some misunderstandings too?
Because both "do not replace until" effects and the rule indicating cards are not replaced until the the DI step is over work on the same level.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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