"Before range is determined"

jamesatzephyr wrote:

In this instance, my preference is probably either for:
- the two damage dealing effects end being being 'merged', and handled simultaneously, or
- the play is prevented by fiat generally: no damage dealing effects during damage prevention.

I don't like the second proposition because it doesn't cover other cases such as Illusions of the Kindred. Or Alpha Glint.
A weird example would be Gabrin (who pays 1 less Chimestry cards) with 2 blood and an Anathema against whom is played an Outside the Hourglass.
During the prevention step, he plays Illusions of the Kindred for 1 blood. Do we handle the damage? If so, it means that the IoK combat is postponed until the damage step is over. But an Aura Reading would be resolved immediately, so new rules would be necessary to handle that case.

The cards we need to consider are :

• Barrens: an effect usable anytime
• Mariel, Lady Thunder: a vampire effect only usable before range is determined that ends combat and inflicts damage
• Outside the Hourglass: a combat card only usable before range is determined, inflicts damage
• Aura Reading: a combat card only usable before range is determined, does something unrelated to damage
• Skin of Rock: a combat card usable anytime (when there's damage to prevent)
• Flesh of Marble: a combat card only usable before range is determined, that has to do with damage
• Skin of Night (at inferior): a combat card usable anytime, that has to do with damage
• Alpha Glint (at superior): a combat card only usable before range is determined, ends combat

Then we can consider the multiple options:
- forbid non-prevention cards/effects from being played during the prevention step. This forbids everything but Skin of Rock. Flesh of Marble isn't a prevention card per se, and Skin of Night doesn't prevent damage
- forbid combat cards and effects that have a non-prevention window timing from being played ("only usable before range is determined" for instance). This allows Barrens, Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, but not Flesh of Marble
- forbid cards that have nothing to damage prevention. This allows Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, Flesh of Marble, but not Barrens (this requires also adding a trait to those allowed cards)

Skin of Rock should obviously be allowed.

I think there's a strong consensus about Skin of Night being usable.

I think there's a mild consensus about Flesh of Marble being usable.

I think there's a strong consensus about Barrens being usable, even if it opens Lady Mariel's ability for use.

I think there's a weak consensus about Aura Reading being usable (because it opens the possibility of played another Outside the Hourglass, or Illusions of the Kindred).

Everything is opened to discussion.

About Outside the Hourglass vs Alpha Glint, the current ruling is:

> > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
>
> IANLSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> another) for combat to end.
Correct.

Rulings:
Weather Control:
# Weather Control's damage will occur even if combat is subsequently
ended before range (by Mariel or Elysium: Arboretum, e.g.) [LSJ
19971110]