file "Before range is determined"

11 Oct 2016 19:38 - 11 Oct 2016 21:49 #78657 by BogusMagus
Hello, I have some questions (again).

I'm aware that this was discussed a while ago.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/60278-sequencing-of-before-range-effects?limitstart=0

Can someone please, one more time, explain how "Before range is determined" effects work?

1) damage VS damage

1-a)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?

1-b)
I assume the answer will be the same as above with "Weather Control".
But maybe not.
"Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage *before range is determined each round*."

1-c-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
1st round.
Vampire A (a Tremere) plays "Weather Control" A.
Vampire B (a Tremere antitribu) also plays "Weather Control" B.
Both Vampires, A & B, are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
Vampire B (the antitribu) would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A (in play).
Would both Vampires, A & B, take damage from "Weather Control" B (in play) ?

1-c-2)
Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?

1-d-1)
1st round.
A Tremere (acting) plays "Weather Control".
A True Brujah (blocking) does not play anything.
Both vampires are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
The True Brujah would go to torpor from "Weather Control" (in play).
Can the True Brujah play "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) ?

1-d-2)
Would it be different if
the True Brujah was acting and
the Tremere was blocking?

==============

Outside the Hourglass
[Combat]
[obf] Strike: dodge.
[tem] Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
[TEM] Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.

Weather Control
[Combat]
Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
[tha] Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage before range is determined each round. A vampire may play only one Weather Control each combat.
[THA] As above, but the amount of damage inflicted increases by 1 in each subsequent round.

==============
Last edit: 11 Oct 2016 21:49 by BogusMagus.

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11 Oct 2016 20:54 - 11 Oct 2016 20:56 #78659 by BogusMagus
Next questions.
(Actually, just checking for confirmations, I think.)

2) damage VS prevention

2-a-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Apparition"
"Armor of Vitality"
"Indomitability"
"Unflinching Persistence"
"Skin of Rock"
"Soak"
etc.
Or use his "Flak Jacket".
Correct?
(Just checking.)

2-a-2)
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Dawn Operation, then "Outside the Hourglass" in the combat.
Vampire B can play "Skin of Night"
Correct?
(Just checking.)

2-b)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Bear's Skin"
"Flesh of Marble"
"Horrid Form"
"Skin of the Adder"
"Sword of the Righteous"
"Typhonic Beast"
etc. and prevent damage.
Correct?

(Just checking, but I'm little confused.
I feel this might contradict other rulings.
Anyway, I will continue to next questions.)

==============

Bear's Skin
[Combat]
Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Bear's Skin each combat.
[ani] [pro] This round, this vampire gets +1 strength and can prevent 1 damage.
[ANI] [PRO] This combat, this vampire gets +1 strength and can prevent 1 damage each round.

==============
Last edit: 11 Oct 2016 20:56 by BogusMagus.

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12 Oct 2016 08:10 - 12 Oct 2016 08:18 #78665 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Before range is determined"

Hello, I have some questions (again).

I'm aware that this was discussed a while ago.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/60278-sequencing-of-before-range-effects?limitstart=0

Can someone please, one more time, explain how "Before range is determined" effects work?

Hi.

1) damage VS damage

1-a)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?

"would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.

1-b)
I assume the answer will be the same as above with "Weather Control".
But maybe not.
"Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage *before range is determined each round*."

Weather Control creates a "pending effect" that will inflict 1 damage during the "before range" step.
A can continue to play cards, but he will be forced to apply the damage of the Weather Control before passing the impulse.
See the thread groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/sNKssgt0E78/discussion
Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.

1-c-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
1st round.
Vampire A (a Tremere) plays "Weather Control" A.
Vampire B (a Tremere antitribu) also plays "Weather Control" B.
Both Vampires, A & B, are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
Vampire B (the antitribu) would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A (in play).
Would both Vampires, A & B, take damage from "Weather Control" B (in play) ?

Yes. Even if B (or A) goes to torpor, there's still the damage from the other Weather Control to apply.

1-c-2)
Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?

No, see answer above.

1-d-1)
1st round.
A Tremere (acting) plays "Weather Control".
A True Brujah (blocking) does not play anything.
Both vampires are still ready after taking the damage, and the combat continues.
2nd round.
The True Brujah would go to torpor from "Weather Control" (in play).
Can the True Brujah play "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) ?

No, because A has the impulse and must apply the damage from the Weather Control before giving the impulse to B.

1-d-2)
Would it be different if
the True Brujah was acting and
the Tremere was blocking?

Indeed, because now the True Brujah has the impulse first and can play Outside the Hourglass. The damage of the Weather Control would be applied after that.

2) damage VS prevention

2-a-1)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Apparition"
"Armor of Vitality"
"Indomitability"
"Unflinching Persistence"
"Skin of Rock"
"Soak"
etc.
Or use his "Flak Jacket".
Correct?

Correct.

2-a-2)
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Dawn Operation, then "Outside the Hourglass" in the combat.
Vampire B can play "Skin of Night"
Correct?

Correct. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/Itzely9s_pc/nod73eVyna4J

2-b)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A (True Brujah) plays "Outside the Hourglass" (Sup) in the combat.
Vampire B can play
"Bear's Skin"
"Flesh of Marble"
"Horrid Form"
"Skin of the Adder"
"Sword of the Righteous"
"Typhonic Beast"
etc. and prevent damage.
Correct?

Correct, same link as above.

Some useful quote from LSJ:

> - You can play horrid form (and similar cards) before preventing/
> healing damage from an OtH already played.
Yes.
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7b4a0293b1e288be
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/3cc686fc638b5ad1
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cf93fbdc27e1c3fd

> - You can play any (number) "only useable before range is determined"
> cards before preventing/healing damage from an OtH already played.
Yes.
(same URL)

> - You can play Skin of Night at inferior to change the nature of the
> damage from an OtH already played if that damage is aggravated before
> preventing/healing that damage.
Yes.


And also:

> > > - You can play Wolf Claws (and similar cards) before preventing/
> > > healing damage from an OtH already played.
>
> > Yes.
>
> I'm having a bit of trouble combining this with the answer given inhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/716c...
A mistake on my part (the latter citation). The RTR is still correct.

(so no Wolf Claws).

> Goratrix attempts to block Shalmath. Shalmath plays Domain of
> Evernight at inferior and the block succeeds. Before range, Shalmath
> plays Outside the Hourglass and Goratrix plays Weather Control. What
> happens?
Goratrix takes 2 damage from OtH.
Goratrix and Shalmath each take 1 unpreventable damage from WC.

All that damage is aggravated, thanks to DoE.

Any retainers on Shalmath and Goratrix each take 1 unpreventable
damage from WC.


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 12 Oct 2016 08:18 by Ankha.

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12 Oct 2016 12:17 #78666 by jamesatzephyr

1) damage VS damage

1-a)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?

"would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.


That's not true.

[RTR 2004-DEC-02]

The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
example).


So, during damage prevention, you can play any arbitrary effect you want, be that:

- tapping the Barrens
- playing Aura Reading to draw new cards, or to force the opponent to play with an open hand
- playing Skin of Night to change how you treat the damage (but not prevent it)

There is nothing, currently, to mean that you can't play Outside the Hourglass

After everyone has passed in the damage prevention window, you then move on to handling the unprevented damage (healing/wounding/burning blood to prevent destruction).

In terms of what happens when you play two competing Outside the Hourglasses, it's not been determined what happens. I went through a number of options over here in 2014 , but Pascal never actually ruled on the issue. That whole thread is quite detailed on the intricacies of before range sequencing - but it's important to read it very carefully, because there are some assertions by some people in the thread that expressly contradict the 2004 ruling on being able to play Aura Reading, or there not being a damage resolution phase in pre-range when handling damage (for some unclear reason).

One of the options - and one I would probably be quite happy with - would be a fiat ruling that you can't play effects that inflict damage during damage resolution (i.e. you can't play OtH during the opponent's OtH damage resolution, if the opponent played theirs first) - but that's not currently consistent with the 2004 ruling.

Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.


There isn't an "impulse for prevention cards". Anything can be used in the damage prevention window, whether damage prevention or not, assuming that the card is otherwise legally playable - but since you're still before range, other before range effects can be used.

The basic issue from 2004 as I recall (hazily) was this: do we want to make the damage prevention window exclusive to damage prevention effects? Options:

a) Yes, damage prevention only. That gets tricky, though, with things like non-preventing Skin of Night. (Or Adaptability, which actually changed damage at the time - it doesn't now.) So it has to be damage-y sort of effects, maybe? What about damage prevention + something else? A bit icky, but potentially doable.

b) Damage prevention only, plus card cycling/drawing effects, such as tapping The Barrens or playing Aura Reading. If you don't allow these to draw into damage prevention, it gets a bit weird explaining why you can't fish for damage prevention but you can fish for intercept, or that sort of thing.

b and a half) Possibly some other special exceptions? Gets ickier.

c) Allow everything.

And where we are now is c), which gets into some slightly awkward situations around the edges.




(I'll look at the rest later.)

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12 Oct 2016 14:56 - 12 Oct 2016 14:58 #78667 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Before range is determined"

1) damage VS damage

1-a)
Vampire A is acting. Vampire B blocks.
Vampire A plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)"
Vampire B would go to torpor when he takes the damage.
Can B play "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" ?

"would go" suggests that B attempts to play Outside the Hourglass in the prevent window. This is not possible.
If B doesn't prevent the damage and goes to torpor, then he can't play Outside the Hourglass.
If B prevents the damage, then he can play Outside the Hourglass as soon as A gives him the impulse.


That's not true.

[RTR 2004-DEC-02]

The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a
Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more
damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is
applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play,
for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you
cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before
burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for
example).


So, during damage prevention, you can play any arbitrary effect you want, be that:

- tapping the Barrens
- playing Aura Reading to draw new cards, or to force the opponent to play with an open hand
- playing Skin of Night to change how you treat the damage (but not prevent it)

There is nothing, currently, to mean that you can't play Outside the Hourglass


Correct, I misread the correction of the misquote of the misreversal of LSJ.

Anyway, the result is the same. If B goes to torpor when the damage of Weather Control is applied, B never has the impulse (for non-prevention cards) and can't play Outside the Hourglass or Weather ontrol.


There isn't an "impulse for prevention cards".

Having an impulse for non-prevention cards doesn't mean there would be an impulse for prevention cards.

Anything can be used in the damage prevention window, whether damage prevention or not, assuming that the card is otherwise legally playable - but since you're still before range, other before range effects can be used.

Indeed, per the RTR-2004.
This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.

The basic issue from 2004 as I recall (hazily) was this: do we want to make the damage prevention window exclusive to damage prevention effects? Options:

a) Yes, damage prevention only. That gets tricky, though, with things like non-preventing Skin of Night. (Or Adaptability, which actually changed damage at the time - it doesn't now.) So it has to be damage-y sort of effects, maybe? What about damage prevention + something else? A bit icky, but potentially doable.

b) Damage prevention only, plus card cycling/drawing effects, such as tapping The Barrens or playing Aura Reading. If you don't allow these to draw into damage prevention, it gets a bit weird explaining why you can't fish for damage prevention but you can fish for intercept, or that sort of thing.

b and a half) Possibly some other special exceptions? Gets ickier.

c) Allow everything.

And where we are now is c), which gets into some slightly awkward situations around the edges.


Talking about b), we'd be in the same situation as "as played" windows during which you can't use the Barrens.
It would make the Barrens unusable (as in "as played" windows), but Blackhorse Tanner's special could be used if you play a prevent card since it applies when you "draw a card". The condition is met.
I'm more in favor of a) that is "cards can be played if they apply". Since Skin of Night changes the nature of the damage, or since Flesh of Marble prevents part of it, they can be played.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 12 Oct 2016 14:58 by Ankha.

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12 Oct 2016 16:30 - 12 Oct 2016 16:31 #78668 by jamesatzephyr

This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.


The sequencing rules work exactly the same during damage resolution as elsewhere - the acting Methuselah goes first, and gets the impulse after every card play / effect use.

[LSJ 20061113]

LSJ applying sequencing to additional strike gaining, then a question about damage prevention, and a confirmation that it applies to damage prevention too.

>> REVERSAL: the gaining of additional strikes is subject to 1.6.1.5 (just like
>> the gaining of maneuvers, &c.)
>>
>> So if the acting minion declines, but the blocking minion then gains
>> additionals, the acting minion can respond by gaining additionals of his own.


> Does this ruling also cover damage prevention?
>
> Say acting minion is hit by 1(one) and declines to prevent, opposing
> minion is hit by 1(one) and prevents that damage. Can the acting minion
> then prevent his damage too? For example to avoid getting hit by a
> pulled fangs/disarm etc.

Yes. (Also a reversal).



In most situations, if only a minion of the non-acting Methuselah is taking damage, the acting Methuselah will pass the impulse. In this situation - where the damage resolution window happens pre-range - the acting Methuselah has the impulse first, as normal, but now might regularly want to play cards/use other effects with it.

In essence, what it means is roughly:

- sequencing of before range effects happens exactly normally, BUT

- once you've applied damage to a minion (e.g. playing OtH, or applying some pending Weather Control damage), you can now additionally sequence in damage prevention following the normal rules, until everyone decides the damage prevention window has closed (by passing the impulse).


This still leaves us with the situation where we don't know what happens when you apply a damage-dealing effect during damage resolution: do they/should they apply simultaneously? do they/should they apply sequentially? if combat ends, can applied-but-not-fully-handled damage disappear (seems unlikely, as discussed over in the thread I linked to earlier )? should it be impossible by fiat? etc.
Last edit: 12 Oct 2016 16:31 by jamesatzephyr.

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