file "Before range is determined"

13 Oct 2016 06:52 #78673 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Before range is determined"

This opens a can of worms since "before range" cards are played either accordingly to the impulse or not if you're in a damage prevention step.


The sequencing rules work exactly the same during damage resolution as elsewhere - the acting Methuselah goes first, and gets the impulse after every card play / effect use.

[LSJ 20061113]

LSJ applying sequencing to additional strike gaining, then a question about damage prevention, and a confirmation that it applies to damage prevention too.

>> REVERSAL: the gaining of additional strikes is subject to 1.6.1.5 (just like
>> the gaining of maneuvers, &c.)
>>
>> So if the acting minion declines, but the blocking minion then gains
>> additionals, the acting minion can respond by gaining additionals of his own.


> Does this ruling also cover damage prevention?
>
> Say acting minion is hit by 1(one) and declines to prevent, opposing
> minion is hit by 1(one) and prevents that damage. Can the acting minion
> then prevent his damage too? For example to avoid getting hit by a
> pulled fangs/disarm etc.

Yes. (Also a reversal).



In most situations, if only a minion of the non-acting Methuselah is taking damage, the acting Methuselah will pass the impulse. In this situation - where the damage resolution window happens pre-range - the acting Methuselah has the impulse first, as normal, but now might regularly want to play cards/use other effects with it.


This leads to this awkward situation:

A plays Outside the Hourglass.
A can't play other cards because we enter the prevention step.
-INSIDE THE PREVENTION STEP-
Since B can play Aura Reading, then the normal sequencing rule applies:
A has the impulse. A plays a Torn Signpost. A plays Increased Strength.
B has the impulse. B plays Aura Reading.
A has the impulse. A passes.
B plays Outside the Hourglass.

Two options: either this opens a new prevention step (for the damage inflicted on A), or both prevention steps merge together.

Some cards later, B and A eventually plays prevention cards.

This still leaves us with the situation where we don't know what happens when you apply a damage-dealing effect during damage resolution: do they/should they apply simultaneously? do they/should they apply sequentially? if combat ends, can applied-but-not-fully-handled damage disappear (seems unlikely, as discussed over in the thread I linked to earlier )? should it be impossible by fiat? etc.

If we consider that the two prevention steps merge together, we can consider that the damage is dealt "simultaneously" and that it must be handled.

Contrary to a aggravated first strike + Carrion Crows situation where the damage of the Carrion Crows hasn't been dealt when the first strike resolves.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/xWPJdV1Q1w4/Bo6_h9fGCPQJ

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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13 Oct 2016 19:25 #78679 by BogusMagus
Sorry for the late response,
and thank you guys!

So...there is NOT a concrete ruling?

I was going to ask a few more (other) questions regarding this, but maybe I should wait till things are sorted out?
(Because I think most of my questions should be cleared if things are ruled one way or another.)

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13 Oct 2016 19:26 #78680 by BogusMagus
By the way, I'm not just asking these as theoretical questions.
One of our (very small) group uses Temporis decks frequently
(Previously Al-Muntaquim, currently Goratrix with Temporis).

Actually, sometime ago;
His Al-Muntaquim (acting. rush?) was in combat with my Ravnos.
The True Brujah played "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)".
The Ravnos (I) had "Illusions of the Kindred" in hand,
and wasn't sure if it was usuable.
(The group had little debate,
and it was ruled that the Ravnos would go to torpor.
I think the ruling was correct.)
My Ravnos deck sitting next to his True Brujah deck has happened a few more times.

Also, currently, I have a deck that uses "Weather Control",
although "Weather Control" versus "Outside the Hourglass" situation has not come up yet.

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13 Oct 2016 19:56 #78681 by BogusMagus
Well, allow me to ask a few more questions anyway.

First, follow-up questions.


> 1) damage VS damage

> 1-c-2)
> Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?

So, is there any difference between
"Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
"Weather Control" timings?

How about between
"Weather Control" that was just played and
"Weather Control" that is already in play from the previous round.


> 2) damage VS prevention

Assuming it is possible to play them,
damages from two (or more) cards (or sources),
do they happen in one instance, or separate timings?

An example;
Vampire A acting, blocked by Vampire B.
A plays "Dawn Operation", then "Weather Control" (1 aggravated damage to both A&B).
B plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" (2 aggravated damage to A).
Can A play "Penitent Resilience" at [for] (This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage.)
to treat all 3 damage as normal?

Is there any difference between
"Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
"Weather Control"?


==============

Domain of Evernight
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Temporis/Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[tem] If this action is blocked, all damage done to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated.
[TEM] Only usable when an action is successful. Usable after resolution. Untap this acting vampire. A vampire can play only one Domain of Evernight at superior each turn.


Dawn Operation
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Fortitude
[for] If this action is blocked, all damage inflicted to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. Any vampire attempting to block may now choose not to block.
[FOR] As above, but vampires attempting to block cannot back out.


Penitent Resilience
Type: Action Modifier/Combat
Requires: Fortitude & Obeah
[for] [COMBAT] This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage. Flash Grenades have no effect on this vampire.
[for][obe] [COMBAT] As [for] above, but for the remainder of combat.
[FOR][OBE] [ACTION MODIFIER] Only usable as the action is announced. Choose a vampire. That vampire cannot block this action.


Jalan-Aajav
Clan: Gangrel antitribu (group 3)
Capacity: 9
Disciplines: CEL FOR POT PRO ani
Sabbat. Black Hand Seraph: Once each round, Jalan may burn 1 blood to treat aggravated damage as normal. He gets 1 optional press each combat.

==============

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13 Oct 2016 20:02 - 13 Oct 2016 20:03 #78683 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Before range is determined"

Well, allow me to ask a few more questions anyway.

First, follow-up questions.


> 1) damage VS damage

> 1-c-2)
> Will the answer be different if it was Vampire A (the Tremere) that would go to torpor from "Weather Control" A ?

So, is there any difference between
"Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" and
"Weather Control" timings?

Indeed. Outside the Hourglass inflicts 2 damage when its played. Weather Control creates an effect that inflicts 1 damage anytime during the "before range step" on this round and the subsequent rounds.

How about between
"Weather Control" that was just played and
"Weather Control" that is already in play from the previous round.

They work the same.

> 2) damage VS prevention

Assuming it is possible to play them,
damages from two (or more) cards (or sources),
do they happen in one instance, or separate timings?

An example;
Vampire A acting, blocked by Vampire B.
A plays "Dawn Operation", then "Weather Control" (1 aggravated damage to both A&B).
B plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" (2 aggravated damage to A).
Can A play "Penitent Resilience" at [for] (This vampire treats aggravated damage as normal damage.)
to treat all 3 damage as normal?

It depends if 1/ this play is legal and 2/ if the prevention steps are merged in that case.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Oct 2016 20:03 by Ankha.

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13 Oct 2016 20:45 - 13 Oct 2016 20:46 #78685 by BogusMagus
Thank you.

More questions.


3) cost

If you can play any cards during damage prevention "step",
that means you pay for the cost of those before you take damage, correct?


4) combat ends

"Alpha Glint" (Superior)
"Illusions of the Kindred"

4-a)
Minion A acting, Minion B blocking.
If A uses combat ends first,
B cannot play any cards?

4-b)
If A inflicts damage to B, then
B uses combat ends.
B takes the damage, then combat ends?


5) special

Okay, these are just theoretical, because I have never seen these situations.

5-a)
"Bloodform" (Superior)
Vampire A acting, Vampire B blocking.
A inflicts damage to B,
B "Bloodform" (Superior).
Can B avoid the damage?

5-b)
"Drawing Out the Beast" VS "Amulet of Temporal Perception"
Vampire A acting, Vampire B blocking.

If A uses the Amulet, then plays "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)",
B cannot stop A by "Drawing Out the Beast",
but if it was A using "Drawing Out the Beast",
B cannot use the Amulet.
Correct?


6) draw

"Aura Reading"

So currently it's playable in the damage prevention step.
I'm just putting it here as a reminder.


7) "irrelevant" stuff

Cards that do not have any effects during this step.

"Armor of Caine's Fury"

But they enable card cycling, so they are not really irrelevant.
Currently playable in the damage prevention step?

==============
Illusions of the Kindred
Type: Combat
Requires: Chimerstry
Cost: 2 blood
Only usable before range is determined.
[chi] Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region. He or she does not contest any other minions or titles in play. The vampire has an amount of blood equal to half of his or her capacity (round down). Combat begins between the vampire and the opposing minion. Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat.
[CHI] As above, but the vampire has an amount of blood equal to his or her capacity.

Alpha Glint
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism & Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Not usable in combat with an ally or an older vampire.
[ani][for] Strike: combat ends.
[ANI][FOR] Only usable before range is determined. Combat ends.

Living Manse
Type: Equipment
Requires: Tzimisce
Cost: 1 blood
This equipment card represents a location and does not count as an equipment card while it is in play.
The vampire with this location gets +1 bleed. He or she can burn this card before range is determined to end combat. A vampire may have only one Living Manse.


Abjure
Type: Power
Requires: Redemption
[COMBAT] Tap this imbued before range is determined to end a combat between a monster and a mortal. If the mortal is a minion other than this imbued, you may move a conviction [1 CONVICTION] to this imbued from your hand or ash heap.


Foresee
Type: Power
Requires: Vision
[COMBAT] [1 CONVICTION] Only usable before range is determined on the first round of combat resulting from a block. Look at the opposing minion's controller's hand. You may then choose to cancel combat. If you do, and this imbued was blocking, the action continues as if unblocked.


Bloodform
Type: Combat
Requires: Vicissitude
[vic] Strike: combat ends, only usable when in combat with an ally.
[VIC] Play before range is chosen. This vampire is immune to non-aggravated damage for the current round. This vampire cannot strike this round. This vampire gets an optional press, usable only to end combat.


Aura Reading
Type: Combat
Requires: Auspex
Only usable before range is chosen.
[aus] The opposing minion's controller plays with an open hand for the remainder of combat.
[AUS] You get +2 hand size for the remainder of this combat. A vampire can play only one Aura Reading at superior each combat.

Armor of Caine's Fury
Type: Combat
Requires: Valeren/Presence
Cost: 1 blood
[ pre] Prevent 1 damage.
[val] Only usable before range is determined. This vampire may prevent 1 damage from the opposing minion's strikes each round. Frenzy cards cannot be played on this vampire; cancel the effects of any Frenzy cards that have already been played on this vampire this combat.
[VAL] As [val] above, but this vampire may prevent 2 damage from the opposing minion's strikes each round.

Drawing Out the Beast
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Frenzy.
[ani] During this combat, opposing vampire gets +1 strength, but he or she cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to long range, cannot use presses to end combat and cannot use equipment. A vampire may play only one Drawing Out the Beast each combat.
[ANI] As above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step each round.


Terror Frenzy
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Cost: 1 blood
Frenzy.
[ani] Only usable before range is determined on the first round. During this combat, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers to maneuver to close range, cannot use presses to continue combat and cannot use equipment.
[ANI] Only usable before range is determined. Combat cards cost the opposing vampire an additional blood this combat. A vampire may play only one Terror Frenzy at superior each combat.


Amulet of Temporal Perception
Type: Equipment
Unique equipment.
This vampire may burn 1 blood to play a card that requires basic Temporis [tem] from your hand. This equipment can be used only once each turn.

==============
Last edit: 13 Oct 2016 20:46 by BogusMagus.

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