file Card replacement and Phase skip.

18 Sep 2023 16:47 #109333 by thiago_sousa
Greetings.

There're situations under discussion on a major whatsapp group.

Assuming that those took place during a tournment:

1- Vampire 1 is acting and plays Mirror walk (regardless of the level). The card says on it's requirement that it'll not be replaced until discard phase. If the acting player draws from Mirror walk, he'll automatically to its discard phase? Even though it was a mistake?

I'm debating that yes, He'll resolve the current action and then he skip to his discard phase, losing the remaining of he's minion phase and influence phase.

2- Going even further on the situation above:
Other methuselah declares that he wants to act during the current player's minion phase through Enkil cog. The situation above happens. How to proceed?

I'm saying that, on situation 2, the action will resolve then the other Methuselah receives the impulse to act through Enkil cog and, when that action is resolved, the impulse returns to the acting player AND THEN skip to its discard phase as per Mirror Walk's text.

I'm also saying that this situations above are the same, or at least similar, to when a player untaps from leather jacket text during his minion phase, which means that its turn ended losing influence and discard phase. Or reduce their handsize from Dreams of the Sphinx effect on Influence phase, losing its discard phase.

Also, I'm defending that the mentioned situation are totally diferent from when a player replaces a Bum's Rush - before resolving the action -, which in this case I said that the card drew is returned to the library and shuffled afterwards OR replacing an Unmasking. For the Unmasking you can't just jump other Methuselah's turns to resume your next discard phase, so the card is simply returned and reshuffled.

Please enlight us with the correct precedure.

Att,
Thiago Sousa
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18 Sep 2023 17:22 #109337 by kschaefer

1- Vampire 1 is acting and plays Mirror walk (regardless of the level). The card says on it's requirement that it'll not be replaced until discard phase. If the acting player draws from Mirror walk, he'll automatically to its discard phase? Even though it was a mistake?

This is a pretty simple unwind. They put the card back and shuffle.
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18 Sep 2023 17:31 #109338 by thiago_sousa
If this happens on for fun game, yes, it would be my sugestion. But if this happens on a tournment, the card text, which is the rule should be aplied. Thats why I'm asking here. :)

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18 Sep 2023 20:52 - 18 Sep 2023 20:56 #109339 by Kilrauko

...

2- Going even further on the situation above:
Other methuselah declares that he wants to act during the current player's minion phase through Enkil cog. The situation above happens. How to proceed?

I'm saying that, on situation 2, the action will resolve then the other Methuselah receives the impulse to act through Enkil cog and, when that action is resolved, the impulse returns to the acting player AND THEN skip to its discard phase as per Mirror Walk's text.
...


Let's start by including the current wording of the cards in question to the post and we'll right away see how by reading the card text the situation with Enkil Cog cannot just "skip" to discard phase...
Name: Mirror Walk
[Third:C, KoT:C, SP:PwN6, V5:PTr6]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Thaumaturgy
Do not replace until your discard phase.
[tha] +1 stealth.
[THA] As above, and if this action is blocked, lock the blocking minion and end the action before block resolution.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc

Name: Enkil Cog
[KoT:R, Anthology:1, 25th:1]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Unique. Requires a vampire with capacity 10 or more. Only usable after resolution of a successful bleed against your prey.
Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed. During any Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire can lock this card to take an action.
Artist: Marian Churchland; Ginés Quiñonero; Marian Churchland

Please pay attention to the "your" part in the replace text. Also note how Enkil does not grant anything aside the ability to take an action with the minion. When used with Enkil, the player does not just get their discard phase at other methuselahs turn. Instead they will need to wait until they've completed their next turn to replace. One cannot skip other players turns or impulses just by drawing a replacement card from Mirror Walk and declaring it's suddenly their discard phase.

And as we're talking about tournament play, well www.vekn.net/judges-guide 114 & 121 deals with Procedural Error - Misrepresentation as in playing the card wrong and drawing extra cards. That's assuming the play has not continued and it's the first thing after that.

For future proofing, they're like this now;
114. Procedural Error - Misrepresentation

Definition:

A player is considered to have committed this infraction when he or she unintentionally misplayed a card or a game rule.

Example:

(A) A player attempts to play Dread Gaze on a referendum that one of his vampires called.

(B) A player attempts to play Frenzy during his own turn.

(C) A player plays Art Museum when she doesn't have any ready Toreador.

Philosophy:

This penalty assumes an unintentional action on behalf of the player. If the judge believes the misrepresentation was intentional, see section 160 - Cheating.

Penalty:

Caution.
121. Card Drawing - Drawing Extra Cards

Definition:

Players are not considered to have drawn extra cards when they place a card face down on the table (without looking at the card) in an effort to accurately count out cards as they draw. This penalty should be applied only once to one or more cards if they are drawn in the same action or sequence of actions, at the judge's discretion.

Philosophy:

Any time players draw extra cards, there is always a chance they will go unnoticed by their opponent, potentially giving them a significant advantage. Because of this potential for abuse, the penalty for drawing extra cards is fairly severe. A player can accidentally look at extra cards very easily, so a separate, less severe penalty is established for that infraction called Looking at Extra Cards (section 122).

Correcting the problem always involves putting the extra card (if known, or a random card from the player's hand if not known) back in the deck and reshuffling the deck, unless some other player has, through the course of the game, gained a knowledge of some portion of the player's deck, in which case the card should simply be returned to the top of the deck without shuffling. This ensures that the game will be impacted as little as possible.

Improper Drawing at Start of Game (section 123) is also a separate, less severe penalty.

Penalty:

Warning. For the game to continue, the situation should always be corrected. When it is obvious which extra card was drawn, the card should be placed back in the deck. If it is unclear which card is the "extra" card, a random card should be selected from a player's hand. The opponents of the player committing the infraction should be allowed to see any cards the other player has seen due to this infraction.

An automatic game loss should be applied if a player has drawn so many cards that a judge is unable to correct the situation.

So first judge needs to determine if it was just play error or intentional. This tends to be time sensitive, if the player screams and notices it right away calling judge themself, it's usually seen 114 that then follows 121's procedure to revert the game state. However if the player spends time pondering, talks table talk and then tries to act with another, it becomes more 121 situation. Note the difference between penalties between the two. If the judge determines that it was intentional then upgrading penalty of 121 is in order.

Please also note how judge guide 200 talks about correcting the game state. That's what kscaefer is referring to. Aim is to return to fair and playable state. Fair means impartial and just to all, to the other players and to the player who is the target of the judge action. Mistakes can and should be rolled back if it's fair, even in tournaments, even in finals. Mistakes that cannot be fairly rolled back should not be rolled back. It's in the rules.

EDIT: I'm talking about rule mistakes, not players miscalculating what they're doing and thus making mistakes. Those miscalculations should be taken as much advantage as possible.
200. Correction of Game State

This section generally deals with returning the game to a fair and playable state after certain types of infractions. Only the judge may make corrections to the game state. Correction of the game state is done in addition to and not instead of the application of the appropriate penalty for the infraction.

Philosophy:

It is important that the player committing the infraction receive no benefit in the game for doing so. If no significant game actions have taken place, play should be backed-up to the point of the error. The error should then be corrected and the game should proceed forward from that point. If significant game actions have taken place (such as having too many cards played and/or replaced), the judge may choose to leave the game undisturbed or may adjust the game state in some other way (for instance, altering pool or blood levels) since players have made play decisions based on the subsequent state of the game.

Examples:

(A) During his master phase, a player realizes he did not make the decision to pay for a contested card.;

Resolution: In this case, very little has transpired since the error was made. The player backs up to his untap phase, chooses to pay or give up the contest, then continues his turn. Once the turn continues he may choose to make the same or different plays continuing forward from this point. 

...

Naturally this all varies from judge to judge, I use soccer analogy, how many dives and rolls on the ground one is allowed is not set by the rules, the referees handle it on the fly as they see fit with the tools they're given. There's fine line between enforcing the rules and interpreting them. But while interpreting them the judges should pay attention to what is default action and what is given to them as a choice. In section 200 default is to correct the game state, but in situations where too much has happened, the judge is given a choice to leave game state as is, aka the Mirror Walk player is in discard phase (I interpret this to include extended table talk as well as game time is a resource.) However that's only for case 1 where it's the acting players turn.

For case 2 enkil+mirror walk, it's forced correction of the game state unless the judge is fine with skipping players whole turn in 1 v 1 situation. I personally cannot see how fair judge can justify that call, as that's literally handing the game to the opposing player. Not to mention skipping impulse from the opposing player giving their turn to the other player, aka if you see call like that, notify VEKN how a judge is likely in breach of 164 and the code of ethics on colluding to determine winner.
164. Cheating - Collusion

Definition:

Players agree to alter, predetermine, or otherwise illegally establish the results of a game.

Examples:

A player agrees to let his friend oust him without offering resistance in order to improve the friend's standings in the event.

With two players remaining, each agree to flip a coin to determine which player will concede the game.

Philosophy:

Players participating in standard table talk or in-game agreements should not be considered in violation of this rule as long as they meet the following criteria:

    No player introduces incentives outside the current game such as cash, cards, or other items.
    No part of the agreement has been secret or has taken place outside of the current game.
    No part of the agreement involves a random selection of the winner.
    The agreement does not otherwise violate section 5.2 of the V:EKN Tournament Rules.

Penalty:

Disqualification without Prize.

Fair really means impartial and just.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 18 Sep 2023 20:56 by Kilrauko. Reason: EDIT: Clarified "mistakes" part.
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18 Sep 2023 22:08 - 18 Sep 2023 22:17 #109340 by thiago_sousa
Hi Kilrauko.
Thanks for sharing your insights. I don't usually post here, so I apologize for not putting the mentioned card texts.
I guess you misunderstand situation 2: the methuselah who wants to use Enkil Cog will not use Mirror Walk. He asked for impulse only.

But all this assumptions I did were made on previous rulings done by other players, being Fernando Cesar one of them, made over the years. Such as unlock from leather jacket's text. If a plyers unlocks from it during their minion phase, they lose all the remaining phases because leather jacket states that the minon unlock by the end of the turn.
One can say it was made by mistake, but, a mistake has its price. A player on a tournment cannot make a mistake and simply undo it. Based on this, I argue regarding the mirror walk's replacement, even as a mistake during a tournment, to skip directly to their discard phase.
But thats my point of view.

Leather Jacket
Equipment. If the action to equip with the Leather Jacket is successful, unlock the acting minion at the end of the turn. Bearer may burn Leather Jacket to prevent all the damage from the opposing minion's strike. A minion may have only one Leather Jacket.
Last edit: 18 Sep 2023 22:17 by thiago_sousa.

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19 Sep 2023 08:17 #109344 by KoRneeshon
The difference is that you can legally unlock using LJ right after equipping it, so if you did, it's the end of the turn. Even if it was just a mistake, it was legal.

With MW, you can't just jump to the discard phase by drawing a card, because for example you have not resolved the action it was modifying yet, and you denied other players to react, both illegal. It's like playing Voter Captivation right after casting your votes and stating that only you have voted. You just can't do that, and it needs to be rolled back if feasible.

Rolling this error back is quite simple, just put the drawn card back to the library and shuffle.
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