file Card replacement and Phase skip.

20 Sep 2023 07:59 - 20 Sep 2023 08:17 #109362 by KoRneeshon

Hi KoR,

The situation regarding MW I mentioned that the action is resolved and THEN skipped to the discard phase. That way I believe its legal. The same principle that you cannot legally lock - after unlocking from Leather Jacket - to continue your turn, you shouldnt be able to replace the card drew from MW.


For situation 1:
1- Vampire 1 is acting and plays Mirror walk (regardless of the level). The card says on it's requirement that it'll not be replaced until discard phase. If the acting player draws from Mirror walk, he'll automatically to its discard phase? Even though it was a mistake?

If all the other players got their impulses, as appropriate and legal, and the only mistake was that the Meth playing MW wanted to do more actions but just rushed withe replacing MW, then, following strict rules, it's his discard phase. But just like the situation with LJ, I think the mistake is small, and "going medieval", as Lönkka adequately put it, against correcting this mistake is not really good for overall fair play. We are not fighting for our children's lives here.


For situation 2:
2- Going even further on the situation above:
Other methuselah declares that he wants to act during the current player's minion phase through Enkil cog. The situation above happens. How to proceed?

This obviously needs a rollback. And when you rollback stuff, you really shouldn't remember the mistakes made, so allowing other players to use EK and then, remembering the Meth's mistake, forcing him into discard phase is simply even more "medieval" and I'm pretty sure illegal - you can't rollback some effects and leave others in place, you just restore the game to a pre-mistake state.

Sorry for this "from-databases-world" approach with transactions rollback and stuff, but it explains this the best, I think.

If some players have a bad habit of taking advantage of such fair play, the best way is to consult the judge instead of going into frenzy mode, in my opinion.
Last edit: 20 Sep 2023 08:17 by KoRneeshon.

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20 Sep 2023 09:37 #109364 by Kilrauko

Hi Lonka.

Thanks for the reply. It may be harsh, but the main point is: is it legal or not? Because you see, here at Brazil unfortunatelly we have a few 'smart players' - so to speak - that would replace, claim to be a honest mistake and try to get some advantage, you know. 99% of the players play in good faith, but after 15+ years playing this game, I can say that i saw almost everything....


Bending the rules to accomodate cheaters to play while creating artificial and made up rulings that are permanet is not the way to go forward as it rewards them while penalizing others. For cheaters there's
163. Cheating - Fraud

Definition:

A player intentionally misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.

Example:

A player uses a fake name and V:EKN number when registering for a tournament.

Philosophy:

There should be zero tolerance for this type of activity.

Penalty:

Disqualification without Prize.

Note the intentionally in there. It's up to the community to ensure cheaters are taken behind the sauna. If they do not learn from the first DQwP then it has to be repeated until they do realize the community does not care for their shenigans nor them to be there.

But it's important to highlight the social aspect of that call, sure it might be culturally different to be called cheater but here it's very high on the personal insult level to question someone's word or accuse them to be deliberately fraulent. There are cultures in the world where some fraud is par the course and is even expected when dealing with authorities who themself are fraulent. However it's important to note that the game is not built around to stand players being fraulent. It relies on everyone playing according to the rules. If fraud is allowed in any shape or form, what's to prevent players using little sleight of hand to add more counters to their gamestate. Fixing games where two or more players agree before how they will split the tables. Speaking in code at the table, also known as speaking foreign language that not everyone in the table can understand even while rules make clear table talk is part of the game state, aka open for all. Or just outright printing altered proxies where obscure card does greater effect then it should do. It's a pond you do not wish to dip the toe in, hence the zero tolerance part. It's the best situation for the community if everyone is in agreement they follow the same rules, play the same game and enjoy it in harmony. When they can trust the other player to follow the rules instead spending energy on doubting and pondering whether their actions are fraulent or not.

Also note how judge guide calls for escalating the penalty so for repeat offences during the same tournament with 121 second time turns to game loss and third goes to DQ. But also note that there's choice for judge to use instead of the default, aka for example with new players or extremely elderly who have difficulty adapting to some new card text/rule change, judge can always just repeat the penalty. Hence in a normal three round turney, round 1 is warning, round 2 warning, round 3 game loss and if somehow that same player makes to finals, they can receive game loss there as well. No need to DQ.
40. Repeat Offenses

The recommended penalty for the first offense is listed in the "Penalty" portion of each infraction. For the second offense of the same infraction, the next highest penalty is recommended. Note that this increase of penalty follows the order of:

Caution -> Warning -> Game Loss -> Disqualification

If a baseline penalty is a warning, the second offense should receive a game loss, and the third offense should receive a Disqualification. For example, a player's penalty for the first offense of Card Drawing—Looking at Extra Cards would be a caution. The player's penalty for a second offense would be the next highest, which is a warning. His or her third offense would result in a game loss, and fourth offense would result in the player's disqualification. Disqualifications that are the result of accumulated infractions are not disqualifications without prize. At the judge's discretion, a level of penalty may be repeated before before escalating to the next level. For example, an inexperienced player has a habit of holding his cards below the table. After receiving a caution from the judge, the player later repeats the infraction. The judge may choose to issue an additional caution rather than escalating to a warning.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

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20 Sep 2023 16:41 #109373 by Lönkka
What Kilrauko & kschaefer said!

IIRC in past Brazil had its weird and totally unique rules how organizational things were taken care of. A hierarchy apparently along the lines of Camarilla in the RPG/CCG was erected and Princes and perhaps even players had to kiss @$$ of their higherups to make things work.

Pretty cool if you're the dude(tte) on top of that pyramid, or at least high up, eh?
Or maybe not!

Please do not institute your own rules but work with the perfectly good ruleset (also for tournaments) the rest of the world is using!
First time mistake can be rolled back unless intentional.
After that start applying the penalties from the tournament rulebook.
After a DQ or a couple the weasels intentionally seeing of they can act dumb and use that for advantage should probably learn.


Instituting your own penalties is most likely in violation of VTES Code of Ethics.
www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/VEKN_Code_of_Ethics.pdf

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