file Card replacement and Phase skip.

19 Sep 2023 11:06 #109347 by Lönkka

Hi Kilrauko.
Such as unlock from leather jacket's text. If a plyers unlocks from it during their minion phase, they lose all the remaining phases because leather jacket states that the minon unlock by the end of the turn.
One can say it was made by mistake, but, a mistake has its price. A player on a tournment cannot make a mistake and simply undo it. Based on this, I argue regarding the mirror walk's replacement, even as a mistake during a tournment, to skip directly to their discard phase.
But thats my point of view.


THAT is a pretty darn harsh point of view!
A really big penalty which is not proportional to the mistake made.

Both are very easy to roll back. No need to get medieval...
(I think not being overtly punitive has been the preferred official way since LSJ and Pascal sure followed the suit.)

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19 Sep 2023 12:34 #109352 by Timo
Another difference is intent (kind of) :

The "normal way" of playing a card is to play it and immediately replace it. And so, playing a mirror walk and then immediately replace it is "natural" (even if wrong).

The "normal way" of playing an equipment is to play it, resolve the action and leave your minion locked. And so, it is "unnatural" to unlock directly after the action has resolved. So by unlocking your minion, you implicitly say to other players that you have finished with the current phase and are effectively in your discard phase.
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19 Sep 2023 18:59 #109357 by thiago_sousa
Hi KoR,

The situation regarding MW I mentioned that the action is resolved and THEN skipped to the discard phase. That way I believe its legal. The same principle that you cannot legally lock - after unlocking from Leather Jacket - to continue your turn, you shouldnt be able to replace the card drew from MW.

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19 Sep 2023 19:04 #109358 by thiago_sousa
Hi Lonka.

Thanks for the reply. It may be harsh, but the main point is: is it legal or not? Because you see, here at Brazil unfortunatelly we have a few 'smart players' - so to speak - that would replace, claim to be a honest mistake and try to get some advantage, you know. 99% of the players play in good faith, but after 15+ years playing this game, I can say that i saw almost everything....

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19 Sep 2023 19:12 - 19 Sep 2023 19:12 #109359 by thiago_sousa
Hi Timo.

Yes, I agree with you all in terms of how easily it can be solved, or maybe this punishment its quite harsh. But the main point is: the skip phase (after resolving the current action) as punishment is legal or not?
Because, like I replied other coleague, after playing this game for 15+ years, I've seen almost everything, and, unfortunatelly, there are a very few players that use 'honest mistakes' in bad faith, i mean, to try to get any sort of slightest advantage. And, I used the Leather Jacket ruling argumentation to try to justify this. The situation per si, didnt happen, but the original discussion on the whatsapp group was about a 'what if'...
Last edit: 19 Sep 2023 19:12 by thiago_sousa.

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19 Sep 2023 23:32 #109361 by kschaefer

Because you see, here at Brazil unfortunatelly we have a few 'smart players' - so to speak - that would replace, claim to be a honest mistake and try to get some advantage

A judge can determine if that's the case and assess any of a variety of penalties from the judge's guide. If there is continued cheating like this from players, then it may be time for the ethics team to get involved.

Honestly, you make the minimal adjustments to make the game state right. You attempt to take away any advantage that the player gained from seeing the card, but also not give them a different advantage. Maybe you only shuffle the top 10 cards because they've been using Heart a lot and don't want to give them a chance at getting something they pushed to the bottom.

But if this happens more than once, judges should escalate this by assessing penalties. IMO, skipping the rest of the phase is not a legal response from a judge. The game state should be preserved as best as possible and this does not do that.

This is generally a great game with great people, but those taking advantage should be penalized until they behave correctly or leave the game. We don't need bad actors.
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