Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan

OK, I see your point (I think).
So it could be possible that Vlad Tepes spoof the "giovani justicar" title.

But, third tradition require a prince or justicar. And then, mention a clan for the created progeny.

I can't see how this clan would refer to the justicar clan because in the case of a prince playing the card there is no such thing. Therefore the clan cited in the text must be the clan of the vampire playing the card.

So, I still think that a progeny played by vanilla Vlad Tepes will be Tzimisce.

It very possibly will be Tzimicse, because in "justicar of Giovanni" the "Giovanni" might just be a word that doesn't necessarily carry clan with it (even though you can't hold that title without being Giovanni clan...) -- and then when Third Tradition says, "same clan as the acting vampire," it checks and sees that Vlad is Tzimisce.

Still, I would really like to hear the rules monger weigh in on this so we can know for sure.

I don't agree with (or maybe don't fully understand) your reasoning around being able to play it as a prince as an argument against.. that only feels like it strengthens my case. IIRC, it's been ruled that if Vlad plays Anarch Secession, he chooses a city title to spoof, even though Anarch Secession doesn't require a title of a SPECIFIC city -- just any city will do. Still, he spoofs the title to which a city gets attached and then when Anarch Secession checks to see which city the acting vampire's title is for, it doesn't see that Vlad is untitled, (or even that has a title for a different city), it sees the city that he named in conjunction with the title he spoofed, because he was taking the action AS the vampire with that title (for that city). Point being: there's precedent that he can choose any title he likes that fulfills the card requirements --- so he can choose justicar or prince, his choice --- and if the card concerns itself with other traits/qualities attached to the title (such as city), then it looks to the quality attached to the title rather than whatever the Vlad has in actuality (at least in the case of Anarch Secession).

Anyhow, I appreciate the engagement and interest; we'll just have to see what the officials say. I hope they get around to this one since it affects a deck concept, but I understand that rulings for Vlad need extra time, thought and care, because his text can cause some pretty weird stuff to happen.

Cheers!

You raise some very interesting points. He can impersonate Justicar as that is a title, and sect to be Camarilla. But he can't impersonate clan, so I think he could become a Tzimisce Justicar and thereby make progency as a Tzimisce. Even though there is no Tzimisce Justicar within the Camarilla I believe his abilities override this.

Ghost1980 wrote:

You raise some very interesting points. He can impersonate Justicar as that is a title, and sect to be Camarilla. But he can't impersonate clan, so I think he could become a Tzimisce Justicar and thereby make progency as a Tzimisce. Even though there is no Tzimisce Justicar within the Camarilla I believe his abilities override this.

I agree that he could take the action as the Tzimisce Justicar. The question is, why couldn't he take the action as the Giovanni Justicar? According to the rulebook, justicar titles are distinct and unique from one another. According to past rulings, Vlad can choose any title he likes that meets the requirements of the card. So why couldn't he choose that one?

I understand that his ability does not mention being able to impersonate clan or meet clan requirements. This is about him spoofing a title (and Third Tradition has no clan requirement). If the answer is that he CAN choose to take the action as the Giovanni Justicar, then the followup question is: does the Third Tradition recognize him as a Giovanni as a result of playing the card (and thus taking the action) as Giovanni Justicar, or does it still see him as a Tzimizce?

Killiam wrote:

I don't agree with (or maybe don't fully understand) your reasoning around being able to play it as a prince as an argument against.. that only feels like it strengthens my case.

My point about this is about the text of third tradition :

The clan of the progeny can't be linked to the clan linked to the justicar title otherwise, when it is played by a prince, there would be no clan involved.

And about the ruling about anarch secession. If I understand it correctly, the city involved is necessarily linked to the title because in the game, the only relevance of a city is linked to a city title.

But for a clan, every vampire has one by default and with my above argument about the prince, I don't see the clan of the progeny being anything else than the real clan of vlad (ie tzim for vanilla vlad).

Killiam wrote:

I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question.

QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?"

1. Yes conditionally. He plays it as a Justicar. not specifically a Giovanni Justicar.
2. No. Third tradition literally says "same clan as the acting vampire".

Vlad never stops being Vlad, or stops being Tzimisce. As Whisker said, he does not pretend to be specific clan. He can merely PLAY cards as if he had the required sect or title. Nowhere is it allowed to be a specific city or clan title.