file Haqim's Law: Retribution - efect during combat

23 Nov 2023 08:04 - 23 Nov 2023 11:04 #109906 by inm8

This ruling does not apply directly: it’s saying a non-acting minion cannot use retribution.

If the minion is bleeding and gets blocked, he’s acting, so it’s another case.

Combat is part of the action so I don’t see why you couldn’t use Reribution. It says « during a bleed action », which it is, because combat is part of the action.


You are correct, it isnt explicitly ruled for the scenario and would be good to get it confirmed by Ankha

Just pointing out that a minion in combat is no longer bleeding even if the combat is the result of a bleeding action being blocked.

You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion.

Last edit: 23 Nov 2023 11:04 by inm8.

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23 Nov 2023 09:23 - 24 Nov 2023 10:05 #109907 by Ankha

One player claim how him can use efect Haqim's Law: Retribution during combat,so just for cycle,him can discard card during combat. if that posible?

Only if the acting minion is bleeding.
REVERSAL: no, not during combat. Only before action resolution.

If is answer yes,many action modifier have same key word (During a bleed action) as Haqim's Law: Retribution,so if is answer yes,can we then play also during combat(after block bleed): Confusion, Bonding, Conditioning......and many other increase bleed cards?

No. You cannot play action modifier cards during combat.
www.vekn.net/rulebook#combat

Note: The only cards that can be played during combat are combat cards.


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No, it is not possible.
One cannot use a bleed modifier during a non-bleed action/step....combat is not a bleed action/step and HLR is only useable During a bleed action as a modifier effect.

Here groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/iRQcAXMl7aY/YMhwNvcDs5QJ is a ruling (on Bonding) that makes it clear that one cannot use a bleed modifier effect on a non-bleed action


If the action is not a bleed action, you cannot use BH:R at all.
If the action is a bleed action (even though it's been blocked), you can use BH:R as it is not "playing an action modifier card", the same way you could use the Barrens.

See REVERSAL above.

An official ruling has already been provided by Ankha :

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79757-haqim-s-law-retribution-and-anu-diptinatpa#105140

You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion.


A minion in combat is not a bleeding minion. Even if it is a combat resulting from the block of a bleed action.


The ruling you quote is only about non-bleeding minions.

A minion performing a bleed action who is blocked and in combat is still an acting, bleeding, minion.

This ruling does not apply directly: it’s saying a non-acting minion cannot use retribution.

If the minion is bleeding and gets blocked, he’s acting, so it’s another case.

Combat is part of the action so I don’t see why you couldn’t use Reribution. It says « during a bleed action », which it is, because combat is part of the action.


Correct.

Just pointing out that a minion in combat is no longer bleeding even if the combat is the result of a bleeding action being blocked.

You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion.


Those two statements are unrelated.
The first one is wrong, and the second one is correct.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 24 Nov 2023 10:05 by Ankha.

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23 Nov 2023 11:12 - 23 Nov 2023 13:10 #109908 by inm8
Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action.

I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection?!?!
Last edit: 23 Nov 2023 13:10 by inm8.

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23 Nov 2023 13:14 - 23 Nov 2023 15:07 #109909 by Timo

Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action.

I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection.


You mean in the "dis pater/spying mission window" ?

Dis Pater
Unique.

Put this card in play. Once each action, if a Giovanni you control is about to successfully bleed your prey, you can remove seven cards in your ash heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed.

Spying Mission
:obf: +1 stealth.

:OBF: Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed.


I guess it would be the case (and I don't like it). It would also trump Archon Investigation.

Archon Investigation
Master: out-of-turn.

Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)


This window is still happening "during a bleed action".

I can't find specific rulings but as I read it, without explicit card text (like spying mission/dis pater), you can't modify a bleed except when you are bleeding (and I think being the acting minion of a bleed action does not qualify as being "bleeding").
Last edit: 23 Nov 2023 15:07 by Timo.

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23 Nov 2023 17:25 #109911 by Ankha

Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action.

I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection.

No, "would be" window is only used for replacement effects. If you want to increase it, you have to do it before.

You mean in the "dis pater/spying mission window" ?

Dis Pater
Unique.

Put this card in play. Once each action, if a Giovanni you control is about to successfully bleed your prey, you can remove seven cards in your ash heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed.

Spying Mission
:obf: +1 stealth.

:OBF: Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed.


I guess it would be the case (and I don't like it).

Dis Pater and Spying Mission increase the bleed when it is "about to be successful", so it's too late once again.

It would also trump Archon Investigation.

Archon Investigation
Master: out-of-turn.

Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)

How?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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23 Nov 2023 17:55 #109912 by maoja
How?

Because, if I read the detailed play summary correctly, we have gone past the ”Attempt to bleed” stage (providing there were no blocks), the action has been deemed succesful and we are just paying costs and resolving the action at this stage. The action has not ended yet.

I hope this does not work and that you can’t use Anu or HL:R at this stage, but cannot find a passage in the rules that would prevent this.

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