Limit master cards?

Ashur wrote:

I think we have serious failure to communicate here. I´m talking about master decks are broken, ie they cannot be meta-played against in any effective or fun way.

I disagree. Master decks are very strong but they can be beaten and I have explained how. We go in cycles worrying about a particular deck being too strong, then we learn how to beat it. Often we need to adjust our style and deck choices. See also: Imbued. They seemed unbeatable in 2007. In 2012? Not really the threat they once were.

Ashur wrote:

I think we have serious failure to communicate here. I´m talking about master decks are broken, ie they cannot be meta-played against in any effective or fun way.

It may be the case that it's hard to defeat them, and not all decks have the options to do so.

Identifying where the appropriate 'friction' points are (or could be) means that we could - as a community - consider adding rules, errata, cards or (selective) bans that do allow you much more freedom to combat them.

But there may also be tricks that decks are currently missing. Working out if more aggressive use of current anti-master tech is feasible is also a good thing to explore. Otherwise, things can get changed, and then the alternatives are discovered, and the change was way over the top (in retrospect). It's not unheard of to hear players express the opinion that - in the fullness of time - Archon Investigation was an overreaction to stealth-bleed, for example, and it can harm other decks that try to force the occasional big bleed through much more than an identi-kit obf/whatever sneak-bleed deck. Best avoided.


Trying to ban a whole deck type in a very blunt way has potential for considerable collateral damage, and that's not fun at all.

Some TWD perspective:

Total # of TWDs since 1/1/2009 (KoT released November 2008): 758
Total # of TWDs since 1/1/2009 with selected cards:

Pentex(TM) Subversion: 423

Deflection: 298

Vessel: 276

Conditioning: 232

Villein: 228

Blood Doll: 224

Govern the Unaligned: 223

Direct Intervention: 222

Wash: 150

Parity Shift: 127

Ashur Tablets: 119

Anthelios: The Red Star: 107

Voter Captivation: 104

Sudden Reversal: 98

Immortal Grapple: 56

*edit added a few more cards

MMPA is strong and doesn't interact very well with other decks, which were properties of imbued decks, and still are, but without memories of mortality and edge explosion they weren't as huge of a problem.

the MMPA decks are re-sculpting how the game is played, and not really in a good way. the game is about Methuselahs using their minions to defeat one another through various means, and the reason master cards are limited to one per master phase from the beginning is garfeild knew that part of the theme is that if ancient and powerful methuselahs are directly getting involved too much, the game is less about the cards being played by minions.

thematically from the fluf, if a really old vampire is getting personally involved all the time, the major sects are going to notice (the sabbat would handle them differently than the camarilla, but they would still be an issue) when an ancient ravnos wakes up, the kue-jin and the technocracy get into the mix to put him down.

from a game mechanics standpoint, trifles are the methuselah barely getting involved, regular master cards are them personally doing one thing, and multiple master phases are them getting way too involved.

the primary issue with playing masters like the mmpa decks do is that they just pick up what they need with ashurs or anthelios and can bloat and deck thin with liquidation.
if ashurs only picked up minion cards, the archetype would be weakened. if there was a limit on playing any master cards beyond 2 and a trifle, decks that just use 1 extra master phase without breaking the concept wouldn't be hurt, but the mmpa decks would be. i don't like the idea of deck construction limits, but some cards allow for the mmpa shenanigans to work without any penalty, and i think those cards could be changed.