Limit master cards?

The last expansions being centered around sabbat and bloodlines, it's just a normal thing that people want to try new stuff. Note there was an Eurobrujah winning a tournament in Los angeles this week end though.

but ok, challenge accepted. Next tourney I'll do my best with Eurobrujah trash. I'll also include juggler and flying Motorbikes to prove you finals is reachable.

Ankha wrote:

It has won only twice in 1 year, and only 10-12 players tournament.

vekn.net/index.php/forum/9-event-reports-and-twd/31309-twd-friend-of-mine-gamex2012-los-angeles-26-may-2012

Reyda wrote:

I'll also include juggler and flying Motorbikes to prove you finals is reachable.

Final is certainly reachable. It will not remove the fact that :
* cross-rush is very costly (you need torn + disarm + grapple / maneuver... at least)
* you have other thing to rush (like your predator)
* the reduced ousting capability that come with heavy combat may give the GW to your prey (since you're basically giving him his first VP by spending what you need to stop him afterwar)
* people can still cross rescue, because table discussion is not alway in your favor.
* it's easier to table talk to make the table static (advantaging the MMPA player) than to explain that someone need to die.
* heavy combat tend to be more prone to hand jam, ousting problem, and/or defence problem by the way combat work.

And then, when you have rushed Nana out of existance, you hope that someone have a rampage for the Parthenon.

It's not independantly the existance of majesty, the fact that the long term plan of MMPA deck is extremely strong, or the others (somewhat variable) strengths of decks with MMPA that is overwhelming. It's the accumulation. Yes, grapple help for one problem. So what ? If Nana or Girls were losing the instant someone played red card, they would not succeed.

Against MMPA, you'd better be its predator and hope your predator is not too aggressive.

Let's debunk some stuff.

Final is certainly reachable. It will not remove the fact that :

* cross-rush is very costly (you need torn + disarm + grapple / maneuver... at least)

- Every deck need ressources, nothing new here, why the need to state the obvious ? You could take in account that a MMPA deck might have his hand clogged with master cards when he gets rushed, thus decreasing the chances he escapes combat unharmed.


* you have other thing to rush (like your predator)


- Still nothing new here, captain. Even if the MMPA deck is my grandprey, i don't want him to be well isntalled with tons of pool and minions out when I finally reach him. Hence the premptive rush if my prey get weakened. V:tes is all about negociations. If people prefer to negociate with the MMPA deck, then good for them : it's the same situation when someone makes a deal with a legacy of pander deck thinking they can maybe not outsmart the mechanics of the deck, but the player himself.


* the reduced ousting capability that come with heavy combat may give the GW to your prey (since you're basically giving him his first VP by spending what you need to stop him afterwar)


- Reducing ousting capability you say ? Please tell me about the ousting capability of a warghoul deck when your prey plays ahrimane ... About the ousting capability of weenie dementation when your prey plays an edward vignes 15 deflections deck.... The reduced ousting capability you are talking about is based on nothing but pure speculation, because in this game it is and will always be situational, providing the decks are optimal and the players know what they are doing.
You say that playing combat can give the GW to your prey ? I'd simply reply you don't know how to play combat, my friend.
And for the risk of giving someone else a VP : It's the same for all the decks. Evryone of them. Miscalculate something, underestimate your predator, and you give him your own VP. New information you're giving here ? I think not.



* people can still cross rescue, because table discussion is not alway in your favor.

- Talking about Breaking news... You can still threaten them with a rush, or better : rush them right away by just talking about rescuing. Or you can also play cards like Amaranth or decapitate that resolve the problem. Or you can diablerize and sacrifice a weenie for unvaluable turns of tranquility. Remember this mantra from Paul M Johnson : My minions serve me, I do not serve them. Losing Jimmy for diablerizing Anson or Nana ? It's a nice tradeoff if you want my opinion. Don't be conservative with your ressources : that's what the MMPA deck wants.


* it's easier to table talk to make the table static (advantaging the MMPA player) than to explain that someone need to die.


- With players being conservative and shy ? Of course. Rely on bold players. Talk with them. They don't want the game to end on a frickin time limit. They want to play the game, not sit on cards.

simple anecdote, I've witnessed during a game a player with 2 no secrets on his magajis (plus raven spies), not attempting to block his predator's decisive actions. He said "but if he plays an elder intervention, I lose a no secret". Guess what : If you suspect him to have elder intervention in hand, make him play it. Else it stays in his hand, and you will never block him -remember me, what is the exact purpose for you playing no secrets ? blocking, right. So by having a single card, or bluffing he has one, he shuts down your game nicely. Try, make him play the card, and at worst you'll cycle into another no secrets.

that's a typical example of conservative play.


* heavy combat tend to be more prone to hand jam, ousting problem, and/or defence problem by the way combat work.


- Almost every deck is prone to handjam, come on... Else why would people stuff their non combat decks with dreams of the sphinx ? There are ways to go around this, and you know it. As for combat decks having ousting problems, I'd like to evoke the existence of Fame, Tension, Dragonbound, Carver meat packing and storage, and if your combat has titled guys in it, Anathema, Perpetual care (Yes, I play this card and it's wonderful), or even Reckless agitation. Nothing prevents any player to build a rush deck with alternate ways to victory except lack of imagination.

Now, stop the chitchat and go build a combat deck that wins.
Don't thank me, I'm giving advices for betterment of the game B-)

Ohlmann wrote:

* you have other thing to rush (like your predator)

One of the really nice things about Eurobrujah is that you have a bit more flexibility here because Second Tradition is great. You can rush whoever you want in your own turn, and still stand a good chance at punching one of your predator's vamps with Second.

Obviously, it depends on what you're facing - a weenie hell predator will force you to play differently - but you have way better options than many combat-y decks in this situation.