What do you do when you will get 0 vp's?

AaronC wrote:

There have also been a couple of procedures concerning how to handle play errors or game state correction that aren't in the Judges' Guidelines or tournament rules. Such procedures are needed, but I am always curious about what is "official".

That's pretty much all covered by 200 in the Judges' Guide. It all boils down to:

a) roll back where you can
b) fudge it where you can't

Most of it comes down to judge's discretion, and it's not a substitute for applying an appropriate penalty (if any).

Further examples beyond that are pretty much just that - examples. LSJ definitely didn't want judges to be carrying around thousands of judgment call precedents, empaneling juries to decide things, and lodging appeals with the organised play director. In the choice between turning every judgment call into a pitched battle between lawyers (on the one hand) or a judge making up their mind and dealing with the fallout, the latter is obviously imperfect - but the former is probably worse.

Out of interest a group of NCs did volunteer to update the Judging guidelines and it's currently in hiatus (mainly due to playtesting)

i think streamlining everything with the judges guidlines and the rulebook would be a great idea (and also a herculean task...). at the NAC this year, a player was informed mid-game about the functionality of anarch convert being contradictory to what he could find online. he thought that using the convert to make a vamp anarch couldn't be done if he already controlled a ready convert.
i don't use that exact minion (high trade value, i don't own any...) but i'm sure the issue has cropped up before.
i'm sure our circa 2004 magic-related guidelines for tournament rules need changed badly, but as far as individual card rulings, having something like the incarnation of the gatherer before the current one would be great for allowing cards to be searched (like secret library) and also having a list of rulings pertaining to that card. simple things like the card being banned are already on secret library, but rulings about certain effects being present on one card database used by players and judges for reference would be very linear and helpful.
i have no means of creating such a thing, so i just refer people to the forums for questions and secret library for card searching. but having one system would be great.
if only we had as much money as hasbro, i'm sure this would have been done

ReverendRevolver wrote:

i think streamlining everything with the judges guidlines and the rulebook would be a great idea (and also a herculean task...). at the NAC this year, a player was informed mid-game about the functionality of anarch convert being contradictory to what he could find online. he thought that using the convert to make a vamp anarch couldn't be done if he already controlled a ready convert.

Given that the Anarch Convert card text doesn't prohibit doing what he had convinced himself that it couldn't do, a rulebook wouldn't have helped this problem in any way.

A game's rulebook shouldn't tell a player how to make each individual play -- or how to read. A game must assume a certain level of knowledge, intelligence, and experience, otherwise the rulebook becomes a training manual for how to be a human being. A rulebook should tell each player how the game is played, via terms and mechanics, and how those terms and mechanics interact.

KevinM wrote:

Given that the Anarch Convert card text doesn't prohibit doing what he had convinced himself that it couldn't do, a rulebook wouldn't have helped this problem in any way.

A game's rulebook shouldn't tell a player how to make each individual play -- or how to read. A game must assume a certain level of knowledge, intelligence, and experience, otherwise the rulebook becomes a training manual for how to be a human being. A rulebook should tell each player how the game is played, via terms and mechanics, and how those terms and mechanics interact.

I don't want to get into an argument Kevin, but I want to point out that if I'm a player who is not fully immersed in this game all the time (or if I am a newer player) and I read the text of anarch convert....

Independent. Anarch: When the convert enters play, you may remove him from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.

And then read the rulebook at the end of section 4.1 which says....

Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card).

I would believe that I cannot bring in a second Anarch Convert so I can remove it from the game to make another vampire I control anarch. I would believe this because "enters play" would intuitively occur after "incoming". It also says,"You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a time..."

I wouldn't think less of another player's knowledge, intelligence, or experience if they came to this same conclusion either.

TorranceCircle wrote:

I don't want to get into an argument Kevin,

That is incredibly unfair of you to say before you post a huge response to which I cannot respond. Thanks for that.