file Recruitment Exercise - Good for the Black Hand?

25 Nov 2013 05:42 #57066 by Jeff Kuta

Saying that this card is broken is an incendiary comment, especially because of your public break with the design team. I think that it is too soon to say whether this card does all that much to VTES games across the world. Having some big argument about it (which is not entirely your doing) isn't proving anything. The proof is in the pudding. Let's let this thing play out. If you really want to bolster your case, then start making decks that exploit the card to the fullest. Post how games went with those decks. Play them at tournaments, like at Andy's house December 28th (shameless plug).


I didn't say the card was broken. I said that Martin and Guilhem showed how strong Recruitment Exercise was in conjunction with Reunion Kamut by winning 2 of the first 6 tournaments with it since it became tournament legal.

I further posited that this combination of cards is so strong that it will overwhelm the other much weaker strategies. BH Assamites are excepted from this due to the preponderance of them in G4/5 coupled with reasonable bleeding with Loss. !Gangrel suffer from the City/Country discipline split and (even still after Danse Macabre) weak ousting power.

I also said that Recruitment Exercise doesn't really address some of the problems of the Black Hand: poor discipline synergy since they are cross-clan, weak combat (such that improving combat should be prioritized). All it does it make more vampires so they can swarm bleed. Personally, I think that is boring.

I also think Recruitment Exercise is contrary to the commonly held opinion by VEKN posters that the game times out too much and has too much bloat.

Yeah, I never said Recruitment Exercise was broken, but I certainly question whether it is "good" for the Black Hand.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
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25 Nov 2013 06:12 - 25 Nov 2013 06:15 #57067 by Suoli

So, I stand by my comments about your ulterior motives regarding having high powered cards being good marketing for a potential business model.


Some clearly broken cards, some excessively high powered cards and some wall paper cards were submitted for playtesting. None of them made it through. What was left were cards that the playtesters wanted to play with and against, both on the tournament level and the weekly casual pub game level. For a theoretical POD model, that makes more business sense than making the game less fun by introducing broken cards.

As a side note, that was Jeff Kuta directly attacking Johannes, unprovoked and out of context, instead of earnestly discussing Recruitment Exercise.
Last edit: 25 Nov 2013 06:15 by Suoli.
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25 Nov 2013 06:26 #57069 by Suoli

I didn't say the card was broken. I said that Martin and Guilhem showed how strong Recruitment Exercise was in conjunction with Reunion Kamut by winning 2 of the first 6 tournaments with it since it became tournament legal.


Martin and Guilhem have shown that they have won tournaments with Recruitment Exercise. Nothing else can be said about the power level of Recruitment Exercise at this point with any kind of certainty.

I further posited that this combination of cards is so strong that it will overwhelm the other much weaker strategies.


You can say "I told you so" when they do. Before that, this is conjecture based on nothing concrete at all.

I also think Recruitment Exercise is contrary to the commonly held opinion by VEKN posters that the game times out too much and has too much bloat.


If I had faith in your desire to have an honest discussion about Recruitment Exercise with no ulterior motives involved, I would argue that there's a huge difference between gaining pool and gaining counters on uncontrolled vampires.
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25 Nov 2013 06:43 #57070 by Dorrinal

I also think Recruitment Exercise is contrary to the commonly held opinion by VEKN posters that the game times out too much and has too much bloat.

I don't think so. By itself the action only generates 1 pool, which is not a great return. It provides fresh targets for Reunion Kamut (the real bloat card) but you're still limited by transfers. How do you time out a game by having a small army of minions, who may have +1 stealth, while only gaining 2 or 3 pool per turn? How is that bloat?

:trem:
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25 Nov 2013 07:20 - 25 Nov 2013 07:20 #57075 by acbishop


I didn't say the card was broken. I said that Martin and Guilhem showed how strong Recruitment Exercise was in conjunction with Reunion Kamut by winning 2 of the first 6 tournaments with it since it became tournament legal.


Just for clarify, Ghilhem did not win the tournament, it was Medhi Mazni the winner playing Ghilhem's deck ;)

:vtes:
Last edit: 25 Nov 2013 07:20 by acbishop.

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25 Nov 2013 07:38 #57076 by jamesatzephyr

There wasn't a communication problem. You've communicated, apparently accurately, that you think flopping out 4 Pander bleeding for 2 at +1 stealth on turn one is a positive move for the game. Why the game needs to be dragged back into a world where weenies can make life very, very unpleasant for their initial prey irrespective of whether they get the GW or not when incrementally work has been done to stop weenie decks causing that sort of devestation, I have no idea.

But since you're claiming the PCK think this is a positive move, it demonstrates that your design process is wrong.


That is your opinion. You are entitled to it.

Can anyone think of a two-card combo usable by a certain class of vampire which shuts down infinite bleeds for 2 at 1 stealth by 1-cap vampires?


Having to defend the combo by reference to being able to take specific counter-measures to counter a wildly aggressive deck type is one of the things that should be setting off warning signals in your design process.

This has been a common marker for many problem cards over the years.

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