file Balancing Ashur Tablets

29 Jul 2014 21:17 #64402 by cordovader

I think it´s a good solution.But then again I ask you Pascal: wich problem exactly we're trying to fix? what's wrong, especifically, with AT?

My issue with AT: It takes forever(*) to resolve 3.
And some tables resolve 9.



(*) forever = more than 10 seconds. From what I've seen, between 1 and 2 minutes.


Well in that case we should ban:

-all swarm decks because turns take ages
-all vote decks because voting takes ages
-all combat decks because combats take ages
-and so on...

We would remain with bleed decks and tables would last 1h.

1-2 minutes seems pretty fair to me, since MMPA decks (what we're talking about) usually play mid/high-cap vamps.
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29 Jul 2014 21:36 #64403 by ICL
Replied by ICL on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Assuming that's the case, would banning Anthelios suitably rein in MMPA decks? In conversations with players I've had in both Europe and North America about Pentex Subversion and Ashur Tablets, I've often heard that part of their frustration with those cards is that they're recurred by Anthelios in MMPA decks. Obvious counters such as Sudden Reversal and Wash are made significantly less effective as a result of MMPAs + Anthelios.


I take it this is a question for everybody.

I think the problem is that different people have different ideas of what suitably rein in means.

I don't find MMPA decks to be disproportionately winning tables or tournaments. I'd still have banned Anson ages ago and never made any other vampire with a similar ability.

I get into the underlying reasons why I'm so against MMPA these days, here: iclee.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/you-there-in-the-woods/

"Administrative functions", whether they be returning Conviction to play, playing masters, searching, or whatever that doesn't involve any other player, are something to be minimized. Interacting with other players should take up most of the time in a game simply because games like this one are experiences where other players matter.

If someone wants to spend four hours deciding what opening hand to play with in a CCG where you choose your opening hand prior to play, great, whatever. Meanwhile, when you sit at a table with other people, everyone should be as involved as possible in what is going on. Doing 12 things before you get to your minion phase is not quality time for anyone besides the person whose turn it is, even then might end up being a chore performing the functions.

It's not just more and more masters getting played, it's all of the additional untap effects, that the discard phase is more active, that there are more options with transferring. The minion phase should be the focus of the game, with everything else being support. MMPA has additional issues beyond this "only one player is doing stuff" issue, but that was the case when I saw someone play Anson in a Jyhad deck as an eight-cap with no other relevant abilities than his special. What I see with the game has been a movement toward numerous administrative functions that lack value to producing a quality multiperson experience.

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30 Jul 2014 03:57 #64405 by BenPeal
Replied by BenPeal on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Hey Ben, James.

I'm not sure Pentex and Ashur would be fixed if Anthelios was. Everybody would still ahve to include 2 Pentex, as for Ashurs see the rest of the thread.


Should I see the rest of your posts in the thread, or all of the posts in the thread? If I read all of the posts, then it seems there isn't a consensus that something is wrong with Ashur Tablets.

I believe that those cards need to be dealt separately.


The cards don't exist separately and can't be dealt with separately. You can't fix/ban Pentex in isolation without considering Una, Ankara Citadel, and Freak Drive. You can't fix/ban Ashur Tablets in isolation without considering Anthelios.

I'm also not suggesting that banning or changing Anthelios is the only fix for the game - I'm putting it out there as a possibility towards addressing MMPA decks. Maybe it's a way, or one of a few ways, to address them. Maybe it's not. Maybe MMPA decks aren't a problem after all.

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30 Jul 2014 04:02 #64406 by BenPeal
Replied by BenPeal on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Assuming that's the case, would banning Anthelios suitably rein in MMPA decks? In conversations with players I've had in both Europe and North America about Pentex Subversion and Ashur Tablets, I've often heard that part of their frustration with those cards is that they're recurred by Anthelios in MMPA decks. Obvious counters such as Sudden Reversal and Wash are made significantly less effective as a result of MMPAs + Anthelios.


I take it this is a question for everybody.


It is. :)

I think the problem is that different people have different ideas of what suitably rein in means.

I don't find MMPA decks to be disproportionately winning tables or tournaments. I'd still have banned Anson ages ago and never made any other vampire with a similar ability.


The question assumes that MMPA decks are disproportionately winning tables at tournaments. If you disagree with that assumption, then that's fine and valid.

I get into the underlying reasons why I'm so against MMPA these days, here: iclee.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/you-there-in-the-woods/

"Administrative functions", whether they be returning Conviction to play, playing masters, searching, or whatever that doesn't involve any other player, are something to be minimized. Interacting with other players should take up most of the time in a game simply because games like this one are experiences where other players matter.


I've had this very conversation with you in person and I'm in complete agreement with you about it. I also highly recommend that people read the article you've linked to.
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30 Jul 2014 04:06 - 30 Jul 2014 04:26 #64407 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

...but the root of the problem is MMPA decks, not Ashur.


Assuming that's the case, would banning Anthelios suitably rein in MMPA decks? In conversations with players I've had in both Europe and North America about Pentex Subversion and Ashur Tablets, I've often heard that part of their frustration with those cards is that they're recurred by Anthelios in MMPA decks. Obvious counters such as Sudden Reversal and Wash are made significantly less effective as a result of MMPAs + Anthelios.

The root of the problem is MMPA decks, not Anthelios :)
Why do I think it's the root of the problem? Because it makes all kind of master card problematic. Master cards have powerful effects due to the fact they are usually limited to once per turn, and they don't interact with other Methuselah (apart of a Sudden/Wash).
Being able to play 3 master cards in a row (and I'm not speaking here of any kind of recursion) is the problem as it means 3 powerful effects that can't be blocked. Some years ago, one could play almost only master cards (namely Anarch Revolt) and win.
Anthelios without MPA wouldn't be a problem: you recurse a card that you can't play until your next turn.

Seat-changing cards weren't banned because they were winning tournaments, but because they ruined a core aspect of the game, the "prey-predator relationship".
Though not so extreme, MMPA ruin the interaction part of the game.

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Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 04:26 by Ankha.
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30 Jul 2014 04:26 #64408 by BenPeal
Replied by BenPeal on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

The root of the problem is MMPA decks, not Anthelios :)
Why do I think it's the root of the problem? Because it makes all kind of master card problematic. Master cards have powerful effects due to the fact they are usually limited to once per turn, and they don't interact with other Methuselah (apart of a Sudden/Wash).
Being able to play 3 master cards in a row (and I'm not speaking here of any kind of recursion) is the problem as it means 3 powerful effects that can't be blocked. Some years ago, one could play almost only master cards (namely Anarch Revolt) and win.
Anthelios without MPA wouldn't be a problem: you recurse a card that you can't play until your next turn.


So what do you propose?

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