file Balancing Ashur Tablets

30 Jul 2014 05:54 #64417 by cordovader

About MMPA deck :

How about rewording every MPA enable with the same template as Anson, Nana and Rumors of Gehenna, so that they don't stack with each other ?

That is :
Independent: If Cybele is untapped during your master phase, you get an 2 master phase actions (instead of one). Cybele may bleed at +2 bleed as (D) action that costs 1 blood. Infernal.

Independent: During your master phase, you may pay a pool to get 2 master phase actions (instead of one). +1 bleed. Infernal.

Sabbat: While ready, Isanwayen may tap for you to get 2 master phase actions (instead of one). Rescuing him from torpor costs an additional blood. Cold iron vulnerability.

The Parthenon
cost : 2 pool
Master: unique location.
You have 2 master phase actions (instead of one).

Weird thing is when you number of MPA is reset during your master phase. Would it need more rewording ?

I agree that maybe Cybele, Nana and Anson have to be "retuned" (to not say nerfed), but what's the point in nerfing Isanwayen, since it has to tap to get the extra MPA? Or Huitzilopochtli, since you need to pay pool for it.

For Parthenon I don't see the point either, since it is commonly contested. With that change you give too much benefit to decks not playing MMPA vamps (that means MMPA vamps will stop playing it, so ordinary decks won't be contesting it).

Rumors of Gehenna is a political action. It can be blocked, DTd, voted against and you can negociate the extra MPA with other players. Don't see the point either.

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30 Jul 2014 06:07 - 30 Jul 2014 06:09 #64418 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Actually, errattas being problematic due to the lack of possible reprint (as today), it would be smoother to make a rule change which would have the exact same effect :

5 Master phase
You receive master phase actions during your master phase. A master phase action represents your personal activity during the turn as a Methuselah.

By default, you receive only one master phase action, {} some cards may change this amount {but never to exceed 2}. You may use a master phase action to play a master card, and some cards can give you alternate ways to use your master phase actions. For example, you can use a master phase action to mark a Red List minion (see section 11). If you've played an out-of-turn master card against this master phase (even if it was cancelled), then you gain one fewer master phase actions than normal (see Master Cards, sec. 1.6.2).

If other effects happen during your master phase, you choose the order in which these effects and your master phase actions are performed.
You cannot save master phase actions for later; master phase actions not used during this phase are lost.

Trifle: Some master cards are identified as trifles. When a Methuselah plays a trifle {for the first time this turn} (and it isn't canceled), {it doesn't use a master phase action}

I tried to avoid any loop hole but I may have miss some.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 06:09 by Timo.

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30 Jul 2014 06:26 - 30 Jul 2014 06:26 #64420 by FrançoisV
@Cordovader : the point is to enforce a "no more than 2 mpa per turn" by card text rather than a ruling. So that it is not possible to have more than 2 mpa per master phase, period (barring trifles and Not to Be), whatever the cost (tapping or extra pool or nothing) of the extra mpa.

@Timo : I think not having to tap Parthenon only matters with PB: Savannah right now (or maybe a future steal location effect that happens during the master phase). I don't see a great impact right now but I could be wrong.

It is also possible to implement this by ruling but I find card text clearer because I find the "effect that grant additional mpa/change the mpa amount" formulation clunky (personal taste I guess)

I would word your trifle bit of rule this way : "playing a trifle does not spend a master phase action unless you played a trifle since the beginning of your last minion phase". Because of Wash and other out-of-turn trifles :p

I forgot to mention Synesios and Sarrasine as effects that give extra master phase actions.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 06:26 by FrançoisV.

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30 Jul 2014 08:17 - 30 Jul 2014 08:18 #64425 by Orpheus
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Hey Ben, James.

I'm not sure Pentex and Ashur would be fixed if Anthelios was. Everybody would still have to include 2 Pentex, as for Ashurs see the rest of the thread.

Should I see the rest of your posts in the thread, or all of the posts in the thread? If I read all of the posts, then it seems there isn't a consensus that something is wrong with Ashur Tablets.

I'm not saying there's a consensus at all, just that I have said already what I thought on the subject. ;)

I believe that those cards need to be dealt separately.

The cards don't exist separately and can't be dealt with separately. You can't fix/ban Pentex in isolation without considering Una, Ankara Citadel, and Freak Drive. You can't fix/ban Ashur Tablets in isolation without considering Anthelios.

Well maybe, but the problem I see people having with Pentex has nothing to do with recursivity, although of course it is made way worse by it !

The trouble is that when you get a Pentex on your first vamp, especially when it's a big one, it's going to cost you one turn or reacting and one turn of acting, at least. That's already a drastic effect. Then, if the player who put it in game can intercept / fight, of threaten the table in any way, or if you're perceived a a table threat, it might stay a few turns longer. That is potentially game-killing for you, and I believe that's the problem players have with this card (and why you need to play 2 yourself, at least to counter it if it's played on you).

I'm also not suggesting that banning or changing Anthelios is the only fix for the game - I'm putting it out there as a possibility towards addressing MMPA decks. Maybe it's a way, or one of a few ways, to address them. Maybe it's not. Maybe MMPA decks aren't a problem after all.

I rather like any solution saying that no more than 2 Master PHASES can be had outside of trifle, which can give ONE MORE.
Last edit: 30 Jul 2014 08:18 by Orpheus.

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30 Jul 2014 08:24 #64426 by Juggernaut1981

The root of the problem is MMPA decks, not Anthelios :)
Why do I think it's the root of the problem? Because it makes all kind of master card problematic.

Since this debate has raged for ages, I sit in the diametrically opposite camp. Leave the multiple MPAs alone and get rid of Anthelios. It then become deckbuilding decisions and cardflow. If you plan to play 3 masters a turn, then your deck will need around 30 Master cards which means you are likely to do heaps in your Master Phase and little at other times in the game. It becomes a decision about which phase you are going to prioritise.

I can't see many non-MMPA decks be drastically hurt by Anthelios leaving the game. Combat decks aren't likely to use it because the only things they are likely to want to recurse are Fame or maybe Frontal Assault... or the odd Blood Doll someone blew up cross-table.

Making an errata that basically makes all "additional MPAs" be "have 2 MPAs" is okay, but it still doesn't stop the potential of silly things like Golconda every master phase on your prey or Pentex reappearing frequently. At least while Anthelios is around.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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30 Jul 2014 08:24 #64427 by alek
Replied by alek on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
IMO, the best solution, which doesn't require any errata on existing cards, is to bring change to the core rules that no more than two master cards can be played in a turn (including trifle) or that you can't have more than two master phase actions.

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