Combat as a strategy

jonathan wrote:

Tupdogs don't seem so bad for the game.

I'm not saying tupdogs should be banned or anything. But I do really think they're more problematic than most combat decks since they're disposable. I know the deck isn't easy to play by any means but still, it is significantly stronger because of this ( and because of Nephs in the Tuphandus version ).

Enkidu, Nana or Theo Bell might be oppressive but they are not immune from "accidents" and still can be blood starved at some points. Even with Tastes.
I've seen Enkidu going to torpor because of a coma played by Midget or on a Cardinal Sin Insubordination - it actually happened to me in a NC game and I lost a round that looked like a game win to this card. Nana carrion+aid can take a breath of a dragon or can get rekt at close range with a single maneuver per fight. Theo and other close rangers like in Otso's infamous Nangila decks are weak to close range aggravated and other hard punchers.

Tupdogs just doesn't care and beat you up whatever is happening. They don't really mind going to torpor. And if you want to actually harm him, you have to get past the wall of Tupdogs / Nephandus and burn his anti-trems.

I mean, I wouldn't call half of the good decks "degenerated" like others here but if one deck in VTES truly deserves that word it would be Tupdogs. And far above any fast weenies imho.

Non-existant user wrote:

There would be some minor impact on the As Announced window and effects that require another card from your hand (e.g. Concealed Weapon,) but nothing unworkable. One must simply rule that if the main card gets DIed, then all the other cards played / shown as part of the announcement go the to the ash heap with it.

No. One must not.


Meanwhile elsewhere:

Tadori wrote:

Tupdogs on other hand have very few problem compare to other combat decks, you are fast and don't care what happens to your minions you fail you go again and the amount of resources you invest in this is very small.

The main problem with Tupdogs tends to be that they are crater makers. They tend to wreck the game for 1 or perhaps 2 players and then die.

Stone was playing one in EC Day2 in Paris; wrecked my game as his predator but that was it.

It could've even been the same deck he played in the Gothenburg EC back in the day (2007) -then Benjamin Peal, Esq. was his prey and the moment Ben lost his first/only minion he bid his time and built a perfect hand while having several vampires waiting to be brought to play at the same time.

When the suitable window presented itself he brought out several (can't recall how many after all these years) !Malks and proceeded to bleed his bothersome predator out of the game the following turn. Not the optimal choice but sometimes you need to finish off your highly toxic predator in order to get a new one you actually can tolerate.

But does anyone have any neat card ideas for enabling combat to oust without the usual "knock opposing vamp into torpor and/or diablerie" designs?

And I have to wonder, if combat decks were given something on par with Conditioning (an action modifier that supports/enables ousting) would it tilt the game too far in combats favor? I.E. if combat = control, would combat decks become to powerful?

Well the enter combat actions are garbage. Combat is the result of a failed action. Deep song is a guide to a proper rush action.

LivesByProxy wrote:

But does anyone have any neat card ideas for enabling combat to oust without the usual "knock opposing vamp into torpor and/or diablerie" designs?

And I have to wonder, if combat decks were given something on par with Conditioning (an action modifier that supports/enables ousting) would it tilt the game too far in combats favor? I.E. if combat = control, would combat decks become to powerful?

In my opinion is it's easy you just add to enter combat cards an oust.

"If any vampire goes to torpor as a resolution of this action its controller losses X Blood"

I know it doesn't resolve going into torpor problem but will speed things up.

Tadori wrote:

In my opinion is it's easy you just add to enter combat cards an oust.

"If any vampire goes to torpor as a resolution of this action its controller losses X Blood"

I know it doesn't resolve going into torpor problem but will speed things up.

If we consider enter combat as bleed action they already remove the opposing methusaleh influence they've spent, generally 1-11, might be some more if there's masters/equipments/whatnot installed on the target. In that sense Fame, Dragonbound & Frontal Assault all already behave in a action modifier kind of way by enhancing the damage done, provided one can achieve it first. If we added additional pool damage to either action or as a combat card playable by minion not going into torpor when opposing minion is going into torpor/being burned, care needs to be taken as otherwise it becomes easy "boost" to certain deck arhetypes already powerful. Would Tupdogs run such "1-2 pool damage if opponent goes to torpor/is burned card"? How about Legionnaires or grinder decks? With easy non clan or discipline tied access to cycle cards, placing one or two such "threats" powerlevel cards might be just what sets the game and they also can be repeatedly called upon.

While I personally feel combat decks do not need additional tools at this moment, I feel there is valid case to use new card as attempt to bring balance and encourage variety. Make it work only when a weenie minion, perhaps below 4 cap/cost is put down. That way it targets only certain archetypal decks that swarm the board and gives additional oompf and reason to go after those minions early, as they should be. From lore standpoint however there should also be huge pr loss on losing older vampires, partially that's already handled via the time and cost of getting one out and then making it do 10+ pool worth of actions. If there's need to add insult to injury on downing a Inner-circle or say Stanislava, have the card wording be Foreshadowing destruction superior flipped on it's head. 9 or above cap and torpored/burned and the opposing methuselah burns 3 pool.

In this fashion;

Name: Insult to Injury
[Finalest Final Nights:U2]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood

Only usable when opposing minion is going to torpor or being burned.
Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
If the opposing minion is capacity 4 or less or an ally, their controller burns 2 pool.
If the opposing minion is capacity 9 or more, their controller burns 3 pool.
Only one Insult to Injury can be played each combat.

Artist: Kilrauko (there'll be a vampire facing away from the looker [enabling "it could be anyone"] pissing on a freshly filled grave while flipping the bird towards skyscrapers/city center in horizon, [hence the additional blood cost to pay to have bodily functions.])

You could taste before it or after it to facilate paying the cost, the cost would ensure 1 cap weenies or allies do not pay it without shenigans etc etc. I would prefer to have "Aim like cancel this card by discarding x masters from your hand on it, but to make it fit text wise on already wall of text card would require removing one effect." Tying the discard to masters fits theme wise as it's potential future methuselah actions thrown away to "save face" and it also targets the certain master cards most likely being hoarded in hand if the number to discard is greater then 1. Would the card be played? Is Street cred, a potence based bloat down in active play? I feel this should not be tied to a particular combat discipline as lore-wise any vampire can pay 1 blood to display bodily functions for a while. Having the cost high ensures embraces, tupdogs etc. won't suddenly start a pissing match either.