Card Idea: Ill-gotten Gains

Izaak wrote:

I'm still not quite convinced that we need cards that add incentive to play bad decks that do nothing but make other people unable to play.

This is a very weak argument because it suppose that combat must alway somehow incapacitate all vampire, while the entire point of the card is to make combat useful for something else than torporizing.

It try to move away from "combat = definitive destruction" to be more like "combat = temporary advantage". It may not be enough and / or have side effect, but the intent is the exact opposite of what you dislike.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

It is meant to be like RotBR. If you bin them in combat, you get the chance. If you bin them via other means (e.g. Horseshoes) then you'd also get the chance.

Banishment just pooed its pants with glee. GLEE. It is so gleeful it'll break out into a song-and-dance routine with Kurt and Blaine any moment now.

(Reality somewhat less so.)

Yeah, probably a pain in the ass on that front then. I'd probably need to add another "Only usable when..." to the front which would clog up more text.

Wha?

The suggested card (and many more combat-related suggestions) all require the opposing minion to be not ready. Like, this card is in the end not much more than a delayed Fame that requires additional actions.

Therefore, the general train of thought seems to be "torping minions doesn't make you win, so let's make up cards that make you more likely to win if you torp minions". I don't think that's a good idea.

It try to move away from "combat = definitive destruction" to be more like "combat = temporary advantage". It may not be enough and / or have side effect, but the intent is the exact opposite of what you dislike.

Then the intent should either be made clear or the proposed cards should actually support that intent.

Before trying to solve any problems with combat it is important to first identify the actual problems. As has been stated numerous times, the major problem is the grandprey and grandpredator having a free game. This problem is a result of people building and playing their rush decks bad and cannot be solved with combat/related cards.

So instead of creating more stuff that works with combat, we should be thinking about cards that require combat disciplines that are actually useful. Touch of Pain, for example, should have read:

pot,reaction - as POT now (2 damage)
POT, action modifier - +1 bleed

Basically strengthening and supporting the bruise aspect of rush, instead of just adding more tools that only help when you kill minions off entirely.

@Izaak:
Actually read what the card tells you and analyse it in an in-game situation.

If I rushed a minion and dunked a 6cap, I would gain 3 counters. I could use those counters to reduce bleed (increasing my defence against any OTHER minions of my predator) after rushing just 1 minion. This would mean I won't need to turn around and rush my predator off the table to have any chance of surviving. Dunking a single minion can slow them down for a turn or two and save me 3 pool + any pool saved from bleed actions taken in the meantime. Or if instead my predator will be unlikely to bleed me (e.g. a Vote deck) I can instead try clear a bit of space in front of me (by taking out the 6cap) and then back it up by an additional 3 points of bleed.

This addresses two of your stated problems with 'pure combat'. Those problems you listed were:

1) A rush deck must obliterate their predator to survive. Which ruins the predator's game.

2) A rush deck must obliterate their prey's minions. Which ruins the prey's game since they are inable to do anything, are left with a pile of pool and have no reasonable decisions to make.


So, this card would give the player of the combat deck some potentially useful decisions.

1) To rush a cross-table minion that may be too hard to handle later and convert it into a mix of defence and forward pressure.

2) To rush a predator minion and convert it into forward pressure.

3) To rush a predator minion and convert it into defence against bleed.

4) To rush a prey minion and convert it into forward pressure.

5) (This would actually be my least preferred choice, but still a choice that could be made) To rush a prey minion and convert it into defence against bleed.

There is actually much more incentive with this card in my deck to let your minion out on its own and even rescue it myself. Teamed up with the usual Fame-Yoyo type tricks you could turn a 6 cap into +6 pool swing towards the combat deck. (+3 Fame damage, +3 on this card, ignoring +1 from Fame in Untap and other sources of pool loss of the prey). This momentum swing should be enough to make the game become more alive for the player who has a Rush predator or Rush prey.

No, you're not getting the point of what I'm saying, really.

1) A rush deck must obliterate their predator to survive. Which ruins the predator's game.

2) A rush deck must obliterate their prey's minions. Which ruins the prey's game since they are inable to do anything, are left with a pile of pool and have no reasonable decisions to make.

I listed neither of those problems as being a problem in itself, but more the consequence of people playing bad decks. As I have also stated numerous times, killing minions and ruining people's games should never ever be encouraged nor rewarded more than it already is.

The absolute KEY to winning V:TES games is to allow OTHER players at the table *including your prey* to actually play the game. Unfortunately not many people understand this, which is probably why out of maybe thousands of (ex)-players only a couple of dozen actually win tournaments somewhat regularly. Rush decks do the EXACT opposite of letting other people play the game and don't win a lot of games as a result.

What the card currently proposed does, is give people MORE incentive to just stick to playing poor decks and nuking minions into oblivion, instead of making them re-evaluate their decklists and approach of the game.

When I play Bleed + a Stealth card, the reward of me playing stealth is that they take the pool damage.

When I play Bleed+combat, the reward of me playing the combat is
a) that the blocking minion won't be so inclined to block next time (or can't bounce by virtue of being in torpor) so that my next bleed actually works
b) that the blocking minion has less blood and that blood cannot be recuperated by Blood Dolls or Villeins (which is pool damage in a way)
c) that the acting minion can actually GAIN the blood lost (which is pool gain in a way)

Stacking "oh and I get to bleed for 3 extra or get 3 extra pool in bleed reduce" on top of that would make it MORE attractive to just play crater decks instead of actually trying to build a good deck.

Again, I want to play VTES and not Rage.

Izaak wrote:

When I play Bleed+combat, the reward of me playing the combat is
a) that the blocking minion won't be so inclined to block next time (or can't bounce by virtue of being in torpor) so that my next bleed actually works
b) that the blocking minion has less blood and that blood cannot be recuperated by Blood Dolls or Villeins (which is pool damage in a way)
c) that the acting minion can actually GAIN the blood lost (which is pool gain in a way)

All of that don't happen with combat usually to be honest. It does happen, and is effective, with for example Shattering Crescendo or Horseshoe. (except for c))

Until you actually happen to torporize someone, combat is useless. The game have all the tool you need to avoid long-term torpor (S:CE, prevention, dodge, etc... Nothing work against everything, like bounce don't work against vote), and even worse a single toon with dominate will twart your bleed almost as easily as 3 minions.

In other word, combat don't work until you have officialy broken the back of your prey.

That's why the intend is to add a card that give you a short-term benefit to combat, to not make mandatory to dunk every minion or none at all. This way, it would be a lot easier to actually play with combat card and being efficient, without giving to combat the tool to alway destroy vampires.