Card Idea: Ill-gotten Gains

You are basing your entire logic off of the assumption that decks that contain combat are bad by definition. Everyone here is trying to tell you that it is not if you don't try to nuke every minion and oust by using red cards.

If you'd take a quick glance at the final tables of the last couple of EC's and NAC's, you'd quickly see that vote, bleed and decks with some sort of combat are all well represented the last couple of years. You'd also notice that the majority of those decks are actually only sporting about 20-30 combat cards and have a different gameplan for the rest part.

These decks use their ability to rush to place tactical nukes in the endgame, when pooltotals are low. Much like your praised Horseshoes and Shattering Crescendo decks do. What they don't do is make a crater around them because all they have is a few Fames and 50 red cards. They bloat, bleed, block and build like every other deck, except that instead of dropping another Govern + stealth, they suddenly Fame-torp a minion to oust a prey that hadn't quite counted in that Fame. They bide their time and make other people do their job for them, because basically, they are good decks.

All in all, I'd say combat, when well-designed and well-played is actually in very good shape at the moment, to the point where Fortitude and Majesty have been making a huge comeback as serious deckspace contenders.

If your argument is that it's "only" animalism, eurotrash, celerity, weenie pot, sticks+fortitude, assorted allies and forms of thaumaturgy bruise/bleed actually winning games, then I'll point out that there isn't exactly a lot of variety in tier 1 vote decks (Parity, KRC, Cap) either. Or in bleed decks (Govern, KS the occasional presence-based deck) for that matter.

Simply put - at this point in time combat does NOT need a generic buff because overall, it's doing quite fine at the highest level of play. Maybe potence needs a little something not related to combat outside of Donall and Constanza so that potence combat is actually worth looking at. Maybe the smash-y side of Protean needs a little something so that Protean is more than Earth Meld and expensive stealth. What we don't need is random bonuses for doing things you shouldn't be doing in the first place. It's that simple, really.

And yet you still miss the majority of my points. Combat is not considered a primary device in a Tier 1 Deck.

The main decks appearing in Tier 1 are:
- Vote
- Bleed
- (And apparently the EC Meta contains a plethora of Girls Will XYZ but they have had minimal representation in the Australian Meta)

I'm not discounting those decks containing a combat module, but as you have also said, they are primarily another kind of deck (e.g. Many of the Girls Will XYZ decks contain a fairly strong Animalism module, many of the Prince Decks contain Majesty when applicable, many of the Vote decks also pack a number of Majesty and Charismatic Aura). So please listen when I say to you: this card is designed for decks primarily interested in combat to make them better at surviving/ousting. This is not about helping Bruise & XYZ decks to be better; those deck types are fairly strong as it is and nearly all of the bruise & XYZ clans have either Animalism, Auspex or Dominate already (e.g. Las, Gio, Ose, Gur, Tor/!Tor say using Cel-Gun). Might this card help them? I'd say not more than another Deflection or Telepathic Misdirection. Those cards already take a bleed action on you, convert it into a 0-bleed and then waste your prey's resources to defend against you. The card proposed would have limited benefit to those sorts of decks; it might pack in 2 for opportunistic purposes so that they can mitigate a poor card draw by sitting on the possible counters on Ill-Gotten Gains until the moment is needed.
It is unlikely to do much more than speed up those primarily combat decks that make appearances at qualifiers (e.g. Weenie ANI, Weenie Cel-Sticks/Guns) because those decks can already compete well in the Tier 1 environment (but are potentially not to the taste of a the majority of players). So it may be placed into those decks more, but Deep Song has already improved the power of a Weenie ANI deck. Cel-Sticks/Guns can often rely on their secondary disciplines (commonly Presence) to gain the ousting power.
This card would add to the viability of more combat oriented decks usually in the middle-to-larger capacity end of things, able to protect themselves without having to either graft-on-dominate or graft-on-auspex. Some of these decks would be:
- Non-Prince Nosferatu and Brujah decks (which are very rare)
- Nosferatu Antitribu decks (which excluding Beast decks are again rare and even then rarely win)
- Brujah Antitribu decks (which rarely seem to win)
- Gangrel Antitribu decks (As if we ever see one that isn't centred on Una or Askinya)
- Salubri Antitribu (who usually suffer from very low forward momentum despite Auspex)


I don't know about your opinion of the life of VTES, but having all of the major clans (and semi-major clans) making regular appearances in the metagame is much more desirable than having a metagame worldwide which is predominantly S&B, Vote and some B&B usually using Princes.

Nah, it seems you are missing the point I'm making all along.

Combat is not considered a primary device in a Tier 1 Deck.

Which is should not be. Ever. Like stealth is not the primary device in a tier 1 deck, or block denial is not the primaty device in tier 1 decks or the same way vote push is not the primary device in vote decks.

Combat IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be an ousting strategy. Because, again, if it is, there is no reason to do anything BUT use that ousting strategy. Combat is a delivery mechanic, like stealth and block denial are. Combat being a less reliable delivery system is a result of combat offering ADDITIONAL benefits aside from being the delivery system.

I don't travel to a tournament with 50 obfuscate action modifier and expect to win. I have to pack payload and defense as well. Likewise you should not travel to a tournament with 50 red cards and expect to win. You have to pack payload and defense as well.

It seems you're unwilling to do so, which is why you lose games and come here moaning we need a card that helps combat oust and defend without having to rethink their decks. After all, if you can reliably smash people's stuff in torpor and waste 2 hours of their time, you should be thrown a gamewin at you, right?

I don't know about your opinion of the life of VTES, but having all of the major clans (and semi-major clans) making regular appearances in the metagame is much more desirable than having a metagame worldwide which is predominantly S&B, Vote and some B&B usually using Princes.

Most of the (semi)-major clans DO make appearances. The "worldwide" meta that you claim is stale, is actually quite varied. Sure, most people don't play bad decks but it's not as if more combat-rewarding cards will suddenly make !Nos or !Gangrel better.

Since you've never played a tournament ouside Australia, maybe it's worth to consider that it's actually YOUR tournament meta that is warped and uncreative?

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

And by doing things the way you have suggested merely leads to another boring proposition... the current situation where people play S&B or Vote and barely anything else at a Qualifier and almost every deck contains a minimum of Telepathic Misdirection as flick defence (but usually grafted-on Dominate). That's as boring as bat-crap as it is. Sorry, but if playing the "who can draw their S&B combos fastest" is your idea of a great day of VTES then I don't want to play much with your group.

This is argument I hear very often and might be metagame thing. In Europe and my country the S&B/Vote decks don't win tournaments usually. Izaak said it well that decks that let others players play their game usually wins. Waiting for right option to lunge and trying to let other players to do work for you is very exciting. That kind of playstyle just requires lot of understanding of game.

Also important question is what game styles are fun for other players. Pure rush combat is the most no fun style for other players and it not should be encouraged.

Combat works good as minion control. Decks packed full of ousting power don't usually have strong minion control so those decks can't adapt well to different changes within game. You have to balance your deck with control/survive and ousting power. Giving pure minion control decks like rush decks more ousting power doesn't make sense. It would be like giving pure ousting power decks +bleed card with inbuild damage to minions. But combat needs more cool cards to work better and there has already been some good suggestions in this thread but crater style decks should not get stronger. Deck with 50 red cards should be always a bad deck (and deck with just full of ousting cards can be a bad deck also which it is because it doesn't usually let your prey weaken the grand prey and table gets unbalanced).

Izaak,
I do read the TWDA. I don't need to be in Europe to read the decks that are winning major tournaments there; I don't need to be there to see the results of that Metagame; I don't need to be there to hear and remember the endless whinging about Multi-MPA decks dominating the meta and 'requiring some kind of fix'. I do notice that many of them are not Bruise & Bleed. There are very few Salubri Anti decks. There are very few Nos decks. There are very few Nos Anti decks. There are very few Brujah Anti decks. There are very few decks that are Gangrel Anti which are NOT Una or Askinya (as part of a Girls Will XYZ). These decks do not see play since their disciplines are uniquely suited to combat and NOT large bleeds at regular stealth plus being able to redirect predator pressure onto their prey. Some may have the ability to do one (e.g. Salubri Antis who can flick). Some may have the ability to do some bleeding (Brujah Anti). Some may have the ability to defend themselves (Nos/!Nos Ani Wall, Country Gang Anti Ani Walls). But they all lack the 'complete' option. So, please, again, read what this card is intending to remedy. It is intended to help these clans, and any future crypts/clans, that may lack these abilities (i.e. Don't come with Dominate for starters...).

Stealth and Block Denial are part of Primary Device of those decks. Few bleed decks do not also contain stealth or block denial otherwise they would not oust and vanish into the mists of time. Without the stealth, there is no bleed. All you have ever advocated for, is "Potence Stealth" (i.e. the Status Quo). Consequently if a "combat stealth" was a genuine option, why would it not see much more play and much more representation in TWDAs? Combat as a delivery mechanism is a furphy, a paper tiger paraded to warn us all of the 'evils of wanting to play combat'. Minion control is vanishingly insignificant in the face of being drastically outnumbered by predator or prey. This is also why the Weenie Combat Decks are the successful ones, they possess both Minion Numbers and the ability to expend as many actions as required to eliminate any minion defence of their prey. There are decks that attempt to create combat stealth by bleeding out their prey's ability to block. This basically works out to be a variation of block denial, it's to multiact until they have no ability to stop your actions.

@Surreal:
The number of times I hear that a deck should contain soem kind of flick is its own depressing reality. There is little reason to choose a clan without Dominate. Those few that do tend to be Princes, to exploit the widely known advantages provided by those titles (apparently another sore-spot amongst players around the world).

Pure Rush can be played smart. Just like any player going like a maniac with Dom-Obf bleed can destroy a table. There is no 'deck type' which is immediately a 'smart' choice. There are easy decks to play, and harder decks to play. There are good decisions, and bad ones. S&B tends to provide few decisions. Powerbleed is again, decision light. Combat decks SHOULD be able to win, but should require more decision making to allow people to play their game AND die at your whim. If you have people who play combat like the game is "Vampire: The Armageddon" then how about you help them to play combat decks smarter? Playing with "Combat Annihilator Jerks" is no fun, but I have nothing but admiration for those who play a PURE COMBAT DECK WITH SKILL.

All I want to do with this card is open the field to Primarily Combat Decks w/out Dominate and Auspex. It should lead to greater diversity amongst the decks as represented in the TWDAs, which would be an evidence in a change of the Metagame to allow Combat to become a competitive equal to Vote and Bleed.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

There are very few Salubri Anti decks. There are very few Nos decks. There are very few Nos Anti decks. There are very few Brujah Anti decks. There are very few decks that are Gangrel Anti which are NOT Una or Askinya (as part of a Girls Will XYZ). These decks do not see play since their disciplines are uniquely suited to combat and NOT large bleeds at regular stealth plus being able to redirect predator pressure onto their prey. Some may have the ability to do one (e.g. Salubri Antis who can flick). Some may have the ability to do some bleeding (Brujah Anti). Some may have the ability to defend themselves (Nos/!Nos Ani Wall, Country Gang Anti Ani Walls). But they all lack the 'complete' option. So, please, again, read what this card is intending to remedy. It is intended to help these clans, and any future crypts/clans, that may lack these abilities (i.e. Don't come with Dominate for starters...).

I agree with that. Of course it would be cool to make more decks playable and nobody is gonna be against that. I just don't see how that proposed card is helping anything with that. Universal combat card which helps easily every rush combat decks to oust while doing dunking also is not going to suddenly make Gangrel anti or Brujah anti better. It will just make already good eurobrujah and animalism decks even better. Those decks you mentioned in your post will still be bad compared to other decks. Also that proposed card will also make crater style play better and more desirable which is a bad card design. The most entertaining part about game is playing the damn game and making easy oust cards for 50 card red card decks is doing the exactly opposite thing.

There needs to be better offensive/defensive cards for some discplines like pot, pro and maybe even obf. Touch of Pain and Street Cred should had been stronger and maybe more multi-use with defense and offense packed in same card. Those cards are examples of failed playtesting and design in my opinion (and I feel there is some amount of that in Vtes).

I agree combat decks should win and those decks already win many tournaments. Rush combat deck with 40-50 red cards is just a poor deck and should remain like that. There are other kind of combat decks also. Decks are rarely just pure combat, bleed or vote. It is not so simple. Just sacrificing ousting power and adding Mind Rapes or Mind Numbs to a deck makes it feel different.

I also agree that bounce has somewhat too important role. That is different discussion and topic and doesn't have to do so much about that card desgin.