Dominate Redux

KevinM wrote:

With all due respect I could not care less about ANY of these card changes, since none of them cover Deflection and Govern the Unaligned.

Propose your own. Or, comment on Translocation.

Govern the Unaligned is really third on the Dominate power tier, well behind Deflection and slightly behind Conditioning.

Jeff wrote:

Govern the Unaligned is really third on the Dominate power tier, well behind Deflection and slightly behind Conditioning.

It is probably most correct to say that those three cards are the three best Dominate cards, as the order doesn't really matter, they are all so under-costed.

Let me rephrase what I said: If the game gets reprinted in some mass-fashion, it might be interesting to apply the changes that you suggest.

In the meantime, I'll continue saying it: Let's take Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection, and change the cost of 1 to 1 as an attempt to properly-cost these three under-costed cards.

Jeff wrote:

I liked Aaron Clark's idea about strictly enforcing the RPG canon that Dominate cannot be used on an older vampire (lower generation).

I'd be against meddling with card text if the meddling is for no reason other than consistency with the WoD canon.

For example, Pulling Strings is in something like 4 entries in the TWDA. It is not an overpowered card, generally speaking. Much of the time, a player will go for something like Delaying Tactics instead (or Vox Domini, sometimes).



The changes to Seduction (in particular) and the Sleeping Mind also make certain forms of wall deck a fair bit better. More or less any star vampire wall deck using a big vampire (e.g. Anneke, Eternal Vigilance) is made better, whereas say a mixed grindy wall is still hampered. I'm not sure that that's a sensible evolution of the game. In general, I would rather push the game slightly towards greater and more diverse forms of aggression in order to do things like reduce time-outs and make it harder for a Methuselah with 1VP in a tournament final to play for a time-out. (Obviously, overpowered forms of aggression aren't what I'm talking about here, and it's still fine to keep those in check.)



I would potentially be interested to see effects that meddled with certain effects being made available to the game, though.

• A unique equipment available to a bruise-bleed deck that makes it harder to bounce, or which lets the B&B deck play an action modifier after bounce has been declined, or something. (Since bruise-bleed often wants to push one bleed action through in a given turn, while also punching stuff, whereas S&B has 27 berjillion bleeds coming, B&B can be disproportionately affected by bleed bounce.)
• An event that has some counters on it, and those counters do something to meddle with troublesome effects, but which might also give the player playing it a bonus too - something that would incentivize you to play it for its own sake, too.
• The cheap unique changeling ally who can help you thwart a small list of Dominate or Dementation cards that have been played for/on/during the action. I'm not usually in favour of magic bullets, but they're not totally unthinkable - and it doesn't have to kill the deck dead, just make life less comfortable.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

A unique equipment available to a bruise-bleed deck that makes it harder to bounce, or which lets the B&B deck play an action modifier after bounce has been declined, or something. (Since bruise-bleed often wants to push one bleed action through in a given turn, while also punching stuff, whereas S&B has 27 berjillion bleeds coming, B&B can be disproportionately affected by bleed bounce.)

You're not pulling that **** on me again
Action modifier

Only usable on a bleed action when a reacting minion changes the bleed target.

Enter combat with the reacting minion. The action ends unsuccessfully.

Enter combat with the reacting minion. If the reacting minion is not ready at the end of combat, the action may continue at the original target.

I would rather have that called "You think you're a Jedi or what?"

This is the kind of exercise I have done in my head but had never written down.

Re: Far Mastery (basic) - I agree that the age of the employing vampire shouldn’t be an issue. Retainers are employees, essentially, and they do not enter the game through an act of Domination, meaning that the rules of that discipline shouldn’t be an issue. If an employer vampire doesn’t have Dominate, they would have no ability to fight someone Dominating their retainer, regardless of their generation (except through intercepting the action). It’s already questionable that you can use a Dominate card to steal an animal retainer or ally since they are not affected by Dominate in the RPG, only Animalism.

I like the change to Pulling Strings, which would be a real boost for it, I think.

I guess your idea would be to replace Deflection and Redirection by combining them into Translocation. It’s not bad at all. I’m not crazy about the title, since the word seems to come from the sciences and has to do with the movement of materials within an organism or cell. It’s hard to come up with a catchy and appropriate title though. Subvert Intentions? Command the Unwitting Pawn? Irresistible Suggestion? We shouldn’t forget we’re talking about mind control here.

Another thing to consider is that a vampire can Deflect/Redirect without interacting with the bleeder. In the RPG, you ordinarily had to get close enough to someone to look them in the eyes unless you possess an advanced Dominate power only accessible to those of the 7th Generation or lower. For instance, Menele possessed such a power and did all his Dominating from torpor (which means his card should have had Helena’s special in order to adhere to the source material). I’m not sure where I’m going with that. You should have to block before you bounce? Hmmm….

My ideas for Deflection, Redirection, Govern the Unaligned, and Conditioning:

Deflection
Reaction
1
Only usable when you are being bled, after blocks are declined. Not usable when the acting minion is an older vampire. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
As above, but do not tap this vampire.

Redirection
Reaction
Only usable when a younger vampire or ally is bleeding you, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the acting minion's controller. That acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
As above, but the acting minion can be a vampire of the same age.

Govern the Unaligned
Action
1
Bleed with +2 bleed. If more pool is bled with this action than the number of this vampire’s capacity, ignore the excess.
+1 stealth action. Move 3 blood from the bank to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region who is not present in the controlled region.

Conditiong
Action Modifier
1
You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount. If more pool is bled during this action than the number of this vampire’s capacity, ignore the excess.
+2 bleed
+3 bleed

Yes, as Ohlmann mentioned, none of these changes, mine or Jeff’s, would hamper 11-cap vampires. Dominate should still be really good. It should just be reined in. It should be complicated to play Dominate with low- and mid-caps. Deflection is the number one trouble-card, however. The reason people aren't screaming about Auspex bounce is that Auspex doesn’t also allow minions to bleed for 6.