Changing the card text template to make entry easier

Ankha wrote:

I think quite the opposite. I prefer a single keyword, rather that a keyword followed by extra text. It's quicker to read, straight to the point with no superfluous information.

I don't think it is superfluous. It serves a purpose, and a good purpose at that.

Ankha wrote:

I misread what you wrote. But I don't think a player can jump directly into the game without refering to the rules or some help during the game; the game isn't simple to a point that reading once the rules is enough. And it's not the only game. Last game I tried (Netrunner) requires a few games before I could grasp all the basics.

I think FFG's games are a terrible frame of reference to take. They have the same problems we have: complicated rules with convoluted rulings.

Ankha wrote:

There's no clarification involved there, because the "prince" keyword is perfectly defined in the textbook. It's more "help for the beginner" or "reminder" text.

To a player:
"Malkavian Justicar" = not clear what this means, wait, let me check/think back on the rules again.
"Malkavian Justicar (unique title, 3 votes)" = instantly clear that this is an unique title that is worth 3 votes

I think that makes things clearer, which is not necessarily the same as having clarification.

Ankha wrote:

Question is: where do we start adding explanation text to cards, and where do we stop? I don't think that titles should be explained.

I propose we start from this. Where would you propose we start?
We stop with this for now, until someone can show that a new change will neither improve on the game or make the game worse, at which point we start again.

Ankha wrote:

And you could go further in the details: why not add "(title worth 2 votes)" so that players know that Prince is a title?

If you re-read my original post, I did.

Ankha wrote:

Or "(city title worth 2 votes)" so players know it has a special interaction with titles from the same city?

Interaction should not be so specific. We see it as "Prince" + "of <city>", which is where I can see you are coming from.

To grow the game, we must assume that not all players know what this means in terms of the greater WoD. For all intents and purposes, we should be reading the title as "Prince of <city>". Just to be clear, what I mean is "Prince of Istanbul" should read as a completely different entity from "Prince of Madrid" instead of reading both as "Princes, one from Istanbul and on from Madrid"

Ankha wrote:

We could even add "(unique city title worth 2 votes)" to make clear there can be only 1 Prince of a city...

That does not make it clear that one city can only have 1 Prince. "unique title, 2 votes" should suffice.

Ankha wrote:

Is there any card you have in mind that adding "(x votes)" will cause the card text to explode?

Without making text explode, any add of "(x votes)" will lengthen the text and reduce the text font size (even sometimes for vanilla prince such as Tara).[/quote]
I don't see a problem here. It's not like the text on Tara become illegible once it shrinks one font size.
Again, I will ask for specific examples supporting this argument where it becomes not good for the game.
Or if you can get 10 other players to say honestly that reducing Tara's text by a single font size makes it impossible to read her text comfortably.

the1andonlime wrote:

"Malkavian Justicar" = not clear what this means, wait, let me check/think back on the rules again.

It is not that the term 'Malkavian Justicar' is not clear - it is crystal clear, but in you example the player doesn't know the rules. That's it.

Once you accept that, we can discuss whether it would be useful or redundant to put reminders on the cards, and if so, which ones. I mean, there are even more rules that are quite important but would require a bit more space to explain/remind on the card, like Scarce or Infernal.

Or if you can get 10 other players to say honestly that reducing Tara's text by a single font size makes it impossible to read her text comfortably.

Vamps lie Tara aren't an issue, but vamps like Arika, Anneke. Anastazs or Aeron (to name a few just a few) sure as hell don't need another line of text. Jut imagine what would your proposal do to Alfred Benezri ADV card.

Kiddo wrote:

It is not that the term 'Malkavian Justicar' is not clear - it is crystal clear, but in you example the player doesn't know the rules. That's it.

Once you accept that, we can discuss whether it would be useful or redundant to put reminders on the cards, and if so, which ones. I mean, there are even more rules that are quite important but would require a bit more space to explain/remind on the card, like Scarce or Infernal.

Yes. I agree that the player doesn't fully know the rules.
And I concede that, for some players, this is just reminder text.

However, I have come across enough feedback from players both new and old that justifies needing such text on the card.

In addition, after looking at all the keywords that would be helped with reminder text, to use your words, it seems to me that titles are the only keywords on a minion that can be easily explained without the extra text causing the existing card text to explode. It is not that I did not consider anything else, it is just that I did, can came to this conclusion.

Kiddo wrote:

Vamps lie Tara aren't an issue, but vamps like Arika, Anneke. Anastazs or Aeron (to name a few just a few) sure as hell don't need another line of text. Jut imagine what would your proposal do to Alfred Benezri ADV card.

Oh wow. He has a huge wall of text.
Yes, this certainly would be bad on him, but Anneke, Arika et al can still benefit from the extra text, IMO.


Just to share a little off-topic:

If I believe I would get my way with something more radical, I would propose a change to the very layout of the cards. M:tG found space to split generic and repeated keywords from the actual card text and that can be applied to V:tES cards as well (e.g. reformatting the art to fit something like "Unique. Minion. Vampire. Camarilla" between the portrait and the card text) which frees up breathing space in the card text area. But this is another story for another thread.