Maneuver

delangen wrote:

A good Methuselah should be able to offer her minions any and all opurtunities to better serve her. I'm sure a lot of minions would appreciate some way to fake out a little more reliably

That argument leads to anything that's possible as a minion card at the moment turning up on a master card. A master card that you pop on a minion and it works like a gun, say.

In the WoD context, the Methuselah already is "helping" the minions. Many things cost pool, which represents the Methuselah's influence. Every card in your deck or hand displaces another possible card - if you don't have the ability to get an Assault Rifle, you don't get to have one. The Methuselah is pulling strings that lead to you having the assistance of JS Simmons, not Mr Winthrop, the War Ghoul, not the Corpse Balloon.


But also: master cards are awesome. Seriously, when putting master cards in your deck, you should be thinking "This could be a Blood Doll. This could be Pentex Subversion. This could be Direct Intervention. This could be Villein. This could be Dreams of the Sphinx. This could be Lilith's Blessing. This could be Ashur Tablet. This could be Giant's Blood." When assembling your deck, you should have a little queue of master cards, with a sign at the head of the line that says "You must be this awesome or awesomer to ride the Jyhad." Would a master card that provided a maneuver really cut it? Even as a Trifle, there are some aweome Trifles.

I have no idea what the thinking behind not providing one in Jyhad was, but I might imagine that quite a few of the things that really wanted long range provided one - guns, Thrown Gate, Aid from Bats. Not Thrown Sewer Lid (which seems like it was supposed to be a quite good ranged strike for free, but lacking the maneuver), not RPG launcher (which is huge), not Thaumaturgy (which was hobbled in a number of ways, not least of which was the fact that second round combat was unintentionally awful, due to Majesty). But if I were a designer on a later set, would I be thinking "I know, what master cards really need is something that's on disciplineless combat cards, permanent guns, a retainer, a piece of equipment, numerous combat cards along with a decent strike, a variety of multifunctional combat cards, oh and Zip Gun which could give a minion a 'run away' maneuver for the cost a blood any time they fancy"? For me, not so much.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

delangen wrote:

A good Methuselah should be able to offer her minions any and all opurtunities to better serve her. I'm sure a lot of minions would appreciate some way to fake out a little more reliably

That argument leads to anything that's possible as a minion card at the moment turning up on a master card. A master card that you pop on a minion and it works like a gun, say.

In the WoD context, the Methuselah already is "helping" the minions. Many things cost pool, which represents the Methuselah's influence. Every card in your deck or hand displaces another possible card - if you don't have the ability to get an Assault Rifle, you don't get to have one. The Methuselah is pulling strings that lead to you having the assistance of JS Simmons, not Mr Winthrop, the War Ghoul, not the Corpse Balloon.


But also: master cards are awesome. Seriously, when putting master cards in your deck, you should be thinking "This could be a Blood Doll. This could be Pentex Subversion. This could be Direct Intervention. This could be Villein. This could be Dreams of the Sphinx. This could be Lilith's Blessing. This could be Ashur Tablet. This could be Giant's Blood." When assembling your deck, you should have a little queue of master cards, with a sign at the head of the line that says "You must be this awesome or awesomer to ride the Jyhad." Would a master card that provided a maneuver really cut it? Even as a Trifle, there are some aweome Trifles.

I have no idea what the thinking behind not providing one in Jyhad was, but I might imagine that quite a few of the things that really wanted long range provided one - guns, Thrown Gate, Aid from Bats. Not Thrown Sewer Lid (which seems like it was supposed to be a quite good ranged strike for free, but lacking the maneuver), not RPG launcher (which is huge), not Thaumaturgy (which was hobbled in a number of ways, not least of which was the fact that second round combat was unintentionally awful, due to Majesty). But if I were a designer on a later set, would I be thinking "I know, what master cards really need is something that's on disciplineless combat cards, permanent guns, a retainer, a piece of equipment, numerous combat cards along with a decent strike, a variety of multifunctional combat cards, oh and Zip Gun which could give a minion a 'run away' maneuver for the cost a blood any time they fancy"? For me, not so much.

I seldom agree with you entirely, but behold, happened again.

When i think of methuselahs incluencing minions fluff wise, i think of victoria ash and her paranoia to shake off assumex influence in the clan novels, andxi think of beckett craitas, khalid, and even the imbued jake and thea in the year of the scarab books. Menele and maybe helena were controlling thier impulses, but i didnt even read squat about any influencing elder directly hand delivering help like a perma manuever. In fact, calebrosez inconnu sire was the only just "watching" elder to make hia prezence known, and menele as "pale wolf" didnt evdn tell his progeny craitas he still existed, instead having mortals gaurd him when beckettcfound him slumbering.

Anyway, ohlmann makes strong points on early game design, with tham being every path put in a blender, sce making combat meh without a way around it, and so on.

A master card making a vampire burn a blood to ignore sce once a turn would be useful, since combined with nsa trii would give 2 non clan or discipline based eays to avoid sce, making earth meld and necro equivelents to prezence sce possible to negate. Resilient mind and blessings of chaos have trouble with those, and while not an every game thing, gives nec and the bezt sce, eaeth meld, more oomph.

A master card making a vampire burn a blood to ignore sce once a turn would be useful

Only if it is a clan card. Or burning 3 or even more blood which cannot be regenerated until the combat ends.

Warning Sirens
Master: out-of-turn.
Play on a minion targeted by a action to give that minion +1 intercept. Alternatively, play on a minion in combat. That minion gets an optional strike: dodge this round.

Dodge is generally considered stronger on average than a Maneuver. This card offers dual use in both intercept and an optional Dodge. And yet it isn't tearing up the scene...

In theory, lots of card ideas sound nice. However, this isn't so much an RPG as a CCG. And at some point things have to be sacrificed in the name of bigger matters to address. Often this relegates flavor cards to afterthoughts.

But hey, if you can dream up a useful Master: optional Maneuver card that might actually see regular play, you're welcome to share.
B-)

Azel wrote:

Dodge is generally considered stronger on average than a Maneuver.

It's like saying that a +3 bleed is superior to a combat end. Thoses two serve different purposes.

The fringe case where you can say that is when you talk about combat defence. But most of the time, people want maneuver to enable other combat option, while dodge is a (defensive) combat option that enable nothing.

To go back to your example, Warning siren is way too weak to effectively give intercept (only action directed to the blocking vampire), and pretty weak as combat defence too.

If you do a master that give +1 intercept vs diablerie and can be played to gain a maneuver while in combat with a weaponless mortal ally, it would be wallpaper too, but it have more to do with the fact it's way too restricting.

+3 bleed ousts. VP is the only end game that matters, and all minions are ultimately expendable, therefore it is categorically better than S:CE. All defense, or general build-up, can be relegated as such in the face of offense; one wins you games, the other keeps you around to win. It's the untap to recur an action (or extra block attempt) from some S:CE that makes them even potentially debatable.

Enabling a combat option often reliant on "high flow" from such a "low flow" source, such as OOT Masters, is generally chasing a design dead-end. It would have to be a trifle even to start and even then the competition for masters and MPAs is brutal. However I'm sure there's combos I've overlooked...

Here, take this starter design and let's see how in demand it'd be:

Personal Escort
Master OOT Trifle
Your minion in combat gains a maneuver.

Off the top of my head... Tremere, imbued, and some beat down allies would love this. But how many would they run out of their master package? 2? 4? More? Eventually you get diminishing returns on those master slots. And when there's already many minion supplies, it's hard to justify.