Champions of Cagn Unbound!

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Let me dissect them a bit more clinically then...

All I really need to say is that your critiques are actually in many ways pointing out the actual positive reasons we designed some of these vampires. "Combat clan" can't oust well, so we gave it some offensive punch. Aye/Orun suck, so we gave some free or powerful specials to vampires who work at their spirituality. Kholo title sucks, so we tacked on some disciplines that provide synergy with other existing vampires. The Timmies and Johnnies of the world LOVE ALL OF THIS. So do we at PCK.

Where did you get the idea that Kholo sucks? Its awesome because its way to get titles on the table, even to weenies, without anyone else being able to do a damn thing about it, apart from DI.

Jeff wrote:

Joscha wrote:

That's why that copyright issue is so ridiculous IMHO. I said this many times before and still am mad about it, because two of my favourite cards couldn't become official VEKN-cards because of it.

I am curious, which two cards? Does this mean that the VEKN was going to use appropriate Guardians of the Faith cards for use in Danse Macabre after all? Does this mean that the GotF cards are actually...good? Even...better?

I personally really liked (after some hints to alter them) Taking out the Cornerstone and Mustering the Forces and gave positive feedback at the appropriate forum back then as you probably remember. That was after the first round of playtesting.
But, alas, you prohibited its use by the VEKN later. Sad.

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Let me dissect them a bit more clinically then...

All I really need to say is that your critiques are actually in many ways pointing out the actual positive reasons we designed some of these vampires. "Combat clan" can't oust well, so we gave it some offensive punch. Aye/Orun suck, so we gave some free or powerful specials to vampires who work at their spirituality. Kholo title sucks, so we tacked on some disciplines that provide synergy with other existing vampires. The Timmies and Johnnies of the world LOVE ALL OF THIS. So do we at PCK.

1) NONE of your tech, flatly NONE OF IT speeds the process of getting Aye/Orun onto minions. They all require a minion to be there, which means your Aye/Orun tech will NEVER be ready to use before Turn 4 (for a single-Aye/Orun requirement or Turn 5/6 for a 3 Aye/Orun requirement).

2) Your card designs are boring. They are not subtle, they are DULL. Like warm soaked beige cardboard dull.

3) These "great powerful texts" on your vampires usually ignore the setup cost of Aye/Orun and are completely hamstrung. Obimpe's text might have been good if it was not a "Once during X" structure; if it was "May tap X Orun to ..." it would be good. Kwabena gets a +1 bleed for a Master card play... it's not really much good, especially when he has ANI OBF and could just get a Tier of Souls more easily. Foluke's Aye/Orun text is useless, there are a dwindingly few combat cards for his disciplines with 2 blood costs. Oluwa-seyi gets a maneuver... for a master phase action. Mbatainy is a canceller... there are a vanishingly small number of combat-cancellers anywhere in the game and they belong to fringe disciplines in general (except Charismatic Aura which never needed to be printed) oh and doing this gets rid of one of the cards you are desperately trying to put in play. Gyasi is a minion without title who gets one additional vote for an Orun... so he becomes a PRIMOGEN once during a referendum...

4) Hybridising vampires into other clans is not a moment of design thought. Design thought would give the Laibon Clans more of their own distinctive flavour rather than effectively pushing them out into other clans. This is basically like saying "!Brujah can't defend well, so we should print a lot with Dominate so they work like Ventrue without fortitude..." That's not creative design, that's laziness. Spoils of War is a more creative solution for the !Brujah's problems.

Klaital wrote:

Where did you get the idea that Kholo sucks? Its awesome because its way to get titles on the table, even to weenies, without anyone else being able to do a damn thing about it, apart from DI.

Unique title. It's worth the same votes as Magaji and can be contested.

Jeff wrote:

I agree. I'll also point out that Juggernaut's initial negative post regarding the Champions of Cagn set was almost entirely done by mocking the cards by changing their names. That low tactic actually undermines any credible criticism he has levied against the various cards by demonstrating that he has little faith in his arguments to begin with.

I would be very curious to see him do the same treatment with the Danse Macabre cards. How many lines of text do they have? How many of them are simply derivatives or combinations of existing cards?

Actually, you have done little to address most of the arguments I have leveled at you regarding your card designs. The mockery was intended to show both contempt what you have produced and to dramatise the points I was making about the cards nature. It seems I have at least conveyed the contempt aspect well.
The name-changes also were used to strongly highlight their similarity to existing cards, further pushing my argument that the set was boring and lazily designed.

I have plenty of faith in my arguments, and if you had continued to read the arguments and challenges you would have seen the further elaboration made on each point and on each card. I still stand by my arguments and you have done nothing to refute them.

Jeff, you are attempting to introduce a Red Herring or an Ad Hominem attack by your claims that my arguments are weak because of their style of delivery. Address the issues Jeff, you have regularly avoided them in this thread and the others.



Regarding Danse Macabre cards... that would seem to be best done in another thread. You could of course begin it with your own analysis of the cards. It might give us all a stronger insight into the analytical methods you use when designing cards.