Submission: Bike Chain

Kraus wrote:

War Ghouls won't care for this anyways, since they work with their built-in prevents. It's a boost to them, but it's ever so slight. The actual effect is minimal.

Same goes to Shamblers. This would be a Lucky Blow + Glancing Blow for them in one card. I don't feel it's problematic levels of synergy. And hey, if it's goth zombies swinging steel, it falls within the rule of cool...

I'm less concerned about people using it to prevent the hands for 1. I'm more concerned about it making life harder for people using casual hitback and mild bruise strategies to take the edge off with such decks: yes, you can come and smash my face in, but you'll be taking a whack from these Carrion Crows as well, or a variety of strikes I've included just to upset the apple cart occasionally - except you won't, if I go to torpor with first strike. I guess they could move to playing Bike Chain themselves, but that seems unhelpfully narrowing.

Kraus wrote:

Timo wrote:

I'm not sure it is a good idea to give another boost to !Salubri which have at the moment one of the strongest combat package.

I'll really have to read that comprehensive report of Jani's !salubri win from two weeks back. It's incredible he got that win. If !salubri combat is actually that much better than .44 or animalism, I doubt it. It's certainly strong. It's fine if it's strong.

!Salubri are something to look out for, for sure, so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Well, I could argue (and I do) that !Salubri combat is better than .44 (I imagine with ) because now they have one of the best (if not the best) rush-like card with sense death : rush at stealth any minion with maneuver and press.
They have 1 card which does at the same time agg damage and can prevent 1 agg itself for claws or ivory bow.
1 card that does either cancel grapple or strike for +3 damage
1 card that cancel ANY combat card which is the best versatility you can have
Access to good prevent with
Access to good defense with
And now, they even have a very good win condition with righteous aura.

So yeah, I think they can compete with for the place of best combat package...

I'm less concerned about people using it to prevent the hands for 1. I'm more concerned about it making life harder for people using casual hitback and mild bruise strategies to take the edge off with such decks: yes, you can come and smash my face in, but you'll be taking a whack from these Carrion Crows as well, or a variety of strikes I've included just to upset the apple cart occasionally - except you won't, if I go to torpor with first strike. I guess they could move to playing Bike Chain themselves, but that seems unhelpfully narrowing.

I see what you're getting at. I have no solutions though, assuming this is something that needs solving eventually.

Quick reminder though: First Strike doesn't go before Carrion Crows, does it? Carrion Crows still do damage in the 'initial strike resolution', which would be the First Strike window. Did I miss something?

No, it has been confirmed multiple times that it does damage in the normal strike window so if combat has ended before that (eg because of unprevented aggravated first strike) carrion crows does no damage.

Timo wrote:

Kraus wrote:

Timo wrote:

I'm not sure it is a good idea to give another boost to !Salubri which have at the moment one of the strongest combat package.

I'll really have to read that comprehensive report of Jani's !salubri win from two weeks back. It's incredible he got that win. If !salubri combat is actually that much better than .44 or animalism, I doubt it. It's certainly strong. It's fine if it's strong.

!Salubri are something to look out for, for sure, so I'm not saying you're wrong.

Well, I could argue (and I do) that !Salubri combat is better than .44 (I imagine with ) because now they have one of the best (if not the best) rush-like card with sense death : rush at stealth any minion with maneuver and press.
They have 1 card which does at the same time agg damage and can prevent 1 agg itself for claws or ivory bow.
1 card that does either cancel grapple or strike for +3 damage
1 card that cancel ANY combat card which is the best versatility you can have
Access to good prevent with
Access to good defense with
And now, they even have a very good win condition with righteous aura.

So yeah, I think they can compete with for the place of best combat package...

To be fair, and not contesting any of your points, I think it could be said that Valeren combat is on par with the best options. It's hard to say which is the best, since it boils down to card draws and situation. All are card intensive. Animalism least so, but it is the narrowest in it's strategic options.

On par is a fine place to be.

No, it has been confirmed multiple times that it does damage in the normal strike window so if combat has ended before that (eg because of unprevented aggravated first strike) carrion crows does no damage.

That said, I stand corrected.

Damn First Strike and working in mysterious ways... Bike Chain was never intended to be a trump card against environmental damage.

The idea was to give a simple tweak to an existing design, make it narrowly useful while not being wall paper, and not clutter it with arbitrary restrictions or too much text. Violent iconography was the driving force.

Who would've guessed First Strike is "t00 stronk".

Of course.

This is why I was just saying that it can compete, not that it is the best because, well, it depends of a lot of things like which cards you have in hands and sometimes you just don't have the right cards...

And yeah, greatness comes from the simplicity : you just need 1 discipline and 3 cards in the name of Deep Song, Carrion Crows and Aid from Bats...