Compromise on Villein

Instead of introducing proxies, how about we just make Minion Tap playable?

Villein
Type: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap and Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.

Which requires significant errata, changing the core text of either Villein or Minion Tap... and in my opinion that means it should be banned (if it does require that much of a rewrite) because new players have no way to know what the actual cardtext is unless either they are told by someone or they go digging through a database to find it. Same situation as the other debate about "errata vs banning" on Pentex Subversion.

I don't think there is a problem about Villein. Yes, your deck with Minion Tap suffers a bit if another methuselah plays Villeins in his deck. So what? If you can't afford Villeins then learn to live with that minimal pool loss. Or play masses of Blood Dolls instead. Or play Suddens on the Villeins. Or hit the villeined (?) minion to torpor and burn him. Or play even more poolgain. Or Banishments.

What annoys me to a medium degree is the way some players go if they are convinced some cards are too strong. Instead of taking the opportunities the game gives them they yell for cardchange. If you feel a card threatens your deck come up with a solution or take the threat. I admit, I don't like the Minion Tap-hosing ability of Villein too. But it is far from making MT unplayable.

BTW Minion Tap is better in decks with more master phase actions plus Anthelios, because you can cycle them back. Villein sticks on the minion. Especially with the Ashur Tablet recursion teck this could be a big advantage. Just because the majority of players doesn't go a way doesn't mean the way isn't good. Be creative before you yell for a change.

And one last point: We allow players in our playing group to proxy Villein with MT, if they want to. For tournaments those players have to borrow Villeins of course. But that's often no problem.

I'm sorry, but I think it is (especially in tournament enviroment) a reconized fact that Minion Taps are brutally crippled by Villeins. The card was, by how it seems, introduced to kill an age old card still largely played by all - a last one-trick-pony to quickly sell out the last expansions before giving the game a finishing blow.

Minion Taps are 'nigh unplayable because of Villein. The major anger caused by the card is not that it's unbalanced, but because it deliberately killed off a card. This grings up humongous issues, among one increased difficulty to get new players going with older starters. A friend of mine started playing a year ago or so, collecting an Arika Lawfirm crypt and some needed cards from eBay, but just with minion taps it's impossible for her to first of all reasonably play with the local playgroup (older players, lots of villein), no to even mention tournament play.

All the tricks that worked on Minion Tap will work on Villein. This is all right. But it did shift the collectivity balance of the game, and introduced some ridiculous issues. Vessel, destroying Blood Dolls, was accepted with horror, but in some decks Blood Dolls are still valuable. If there is no ruling over Villein, so that a playgroup either doesn't have them or decides not to use them, Minion Tap almost cannot be played. And I'm usually the one ranting on with how any card can find a time and place to be played, at least to a reasonable effect!


About the errata and proxy discussion: I strongly advice against them. But, if Villein would be errated, I would go with the simplest option possible:

Change "Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool", to "Minion Tap cards cost [one] pool."

If you find a loophole in there, instead change into: "[If there is one or more Villein in play] Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool."


About tournament play and Villeins: If a new playgroup would pick up the game and wanted to try out tournaments, there most likely will be no players with ~10 villeins to spare. This once again comes down to the problem with starting up the game from scratch - and directly impacts the survivability of the game.

The problems with Villein have nothing to do with game mechanics or tournament balance, but with more mundane issues: recruiting new gamers, accessibility of the game, and death of previous cards - last of which is not a part of VtES ethos, as far as I understand it.

Kraus wrote:

I'm sorry, but I think it is (especially in tournament enviroment) a reconized fact that Minion Taps are brutally crippled by Villeins. The card was, by how it seems, introduced to kill an age old card still largely played by all - a last one-trick-pony to quickly sell out the last expansions before giving the game a finishing blow.

Minion Taps are 'nigh unplayable because of Villein.

Simple math does not support this "fact".

If 30% of the people at a tournament are playing with Villeins, based on 2010s TWDA, then:

At a 5 player table 1 or 2 of your opponents will be playing Villeins.

If only 1-2 people are playing Villeins, if your deck is equal to the 1-2 decks with Villeins, your first Minion Tap should only cost you either 0, 1 or 2 pool - depending on table seating.

Still assuming your deck is equal to the other 2 decks playing with Villeins, your next Minion Tap should cost you either 2, 3 or 4 pool.

After the second set of Villeins or Minion Taps, imo, the math gets a little more difficult. Are the other 2 possible decks playing with 3+ fat vampires for targets of their Villeins?

If not, then the cost of your Minion Taps is stable at 2 or 4 pool. 4 pool would hurt yes, but depending on your Minion Tap target, is still probably pool generating. Meanwhile, Villeins will start to cost the other Meth pool reap large rewards.

If yes, then your Minion Taps then might become too cost inefficient and have to be discarded.

Would somebody with higher math skills care to analyze the situation?

A while back, buried somewhere in thepathofblood.com forums, David Cherryholmes explained how he realized he was dedicating too many cards to pool and blood recursion, so just stopped. He played (and won with) decks that had no Blood Dolls, no Minion Taps, no Hunting Grounds, etc. He used the extra card slots to defend the pool he already had.

Pool recursion is a CHOICE that players make. Villeins and Minion Taps are not required in your deck. If you don't have any Villeins but feel you can't play Minion Tap...play intercept. You won't need Pool recursion.

No errata.
No bans.
Play.The.Game.