Compromise on Villein

Kushiel wrote:

Gargoylee wrote:

The interesting thing I notice from looking at those decks is that one of them, Michael Courtois' Arika and Friends Tap & Bleed probably works better with Minion Tap than it would with Villeins.

Quite right. If you look up "Ector Has No Vision," which Darby based on Mike's deck here, you'll find a deck built specifically to dispute the claim that Ector made on the newsgroup that Villein is always better than Minion Tap.

I'm not shure, but it's 2 WD in the last two(3?) years. Even girls, whith anthelious and ahur recursion, is better with villein.

elotar wrote:

I'm not shure, but it's 2 WD in the last two(3?) years. Even girls, whith anthelious and ahur recursion, is better with villein.

Girls needs Villein because its library is mostly master cards, and it needs its trifleness.

I've actually lost track of your point here - it used to be that it's impossible to win a tournament playing a deck which uses Minion Tap, but you've wisely changed your position on that. Are you saying now that Villein is better than Minion Tap? For most decks, yes. But that doesn't mean that Villein needs to be banned or errata'd or allowed as a proxy; all those issues are orthogonal to that point.

What will the game lose by banning villein:
err...Nothing?

What will the game gain by banning villein:
1. GWFIP and other "master bloat" decks become a little less powerful.
2. No $75 "entry barrier" for a new players to play big wamps.
3. No "one random player starts with 40 pool" situations
4. No long discussions about villein

elotar wrote:

What will the game lose by banning villeyn:
err...Nothing?

No. Every card that's banned results in the game losing something. The question is whether or not that loss is outweighed by improvements to the game that result from the ban.

elotar wrote:

What will the game gain by banning villeyn:
1. GWFIP and other "master bloat" decks become a little less powerful.

It's not the job of the VEKN to dictate the metagame. Unless a deck is so hideously overpowered that it warps the entire play environment, which Girls doesn't appear to be, the VEKN has no right to tamper with the power level of any deck.

elotar wrote:

2. No $75 "entry barrier" for a new players to play big wamps.

No such barrier currently exists. If new players are playing casually with other new players, nobody will have Villein, so it's a non-issue. If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein.

elotar wrote:

3. No "one random player starts with 40 pool" situations

Banning Villein doesn't make Minion Tap/Giant's Blood somehow not work. I do agree that it would make those situations less frequent.

elotar wrote:

4. No long discussions about villein

People would find something else to have long discussions about, no fear.

So the only thing that would be gained by banning Villein would be making "10 free pool" scenarios less frequent. Given that you can already prevent those situations quite easily, it's not worth the effort to ban Villein for that reason alone.

Kushiel wrote:

No. Every card that's banned results in the game losing something.

So what we will lose?

It's not the job of the VEKN to dictate the metagame. Unless a deck is so hideously overpowered that it warps the entire play environment, which Girls doesn't appear to be, the VEKN has no right to tamper with the power level of any deck.

As it was said, the main goal of V was to contain MT, which was considered "too good". But, unfortunatly, V is just better MT. Girls is a degenerated archetype even apperance of which (not speaking about regular wins) is the alarm that master department is seriously broken.

No such barrier currently exists. If new players are playing casually with other new players, nobody will have Villein, so it's a non-issue. If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein.

It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins.

elotar wrote:

Banning Villein doesn't make Minion Tap/Giant's Blood somehow not work.

MT - 5 turns - GB is absolutly different situation.

People would find something else to have long discussions about, no fear.

But I will never join them. I'm feeling exhausted alredy.

I think people fail to realize that the argument "it is much harder to use MT effectively now" is different than "you *can't* win with minion tap." Many decks feature library cards, strategies, or vampires that are harder to win with either to see if it works or to taunt other players. MT has moved closer to that sort of card.

On that note, someone needs to play a tortured confession + precision deck. Enkidu, are you man enough?