Compromise on Villein

elotar wrote:

So what we will lose?

The ability to put Villein in decks, and all the knock-on effects which that loss entails.

elotar wrote:

As it was said, the main goal of V was to contain MT, which was considered "too good".

That's Bakija's opinion. LSJ hasn't ever weighed in on that matter officially, or at least he didn't during playtest - he never revealed designer intent during playtesting, which was sometimes frustrating, though I understand why he handled things that way for a variable-component game.

I think that Villein was actually meant to be analogous to Vessel - an alternative to a staple meant to shake up the prevalance of that staple, not a replacement for it - but it failed to get that fourth round of playtesting that would've landed it in the same sweet spot as Vessel.

elotar wrote:

But, unfortunatly, V is just better MT. Girls is a degenerated archetype even apperance of which (not speaking about regular wins) is the alarm that master department is seriously broken.

Every time a new deck archetype appears on the tournament scene and does well, some folks will lament its brokenness. Until it's actually shown to be broken, which Girls hasn't been, that lamentation isn't reason enough to make changes to the game itself.

elotar wrote:

It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins.

I was actually thinking of public events liks Weeks of Nightmares and Origins when I wrote that. It's quite common to see people lending each other cards during those events.

But I'm a bit confused now - if there aren't many/any Villeins in your playgroup, how are you disadvantated by playing Minion Tap there?

elotar wrote:

MT - 5 turns - GB is absolutly different situation.

That's not what I was referring to. It's been possible to play Minion Tap and Giant's Blood in the same master phase since the beginning of the game. Villein makes that easier to pull off, but it's certainly not a new effect by any measure.

Lönkka wrote:

elotar wrote:

Kushiel wrote:

If new players are playing competitively, with older players, they can borrow Villeins from those players or simply play decks that don't require Villein.

It may be true 4 your playgroop, but here there are just not enougth villeins.

I suggested to you in Newsgroup where you guys could still get Heirs Starters, but since you keep insisting that Villeins aren't available I've come to conclusion that you guys just don't want to spend any money on cards. Hence all the relentless talk about proxying, banning etc

I got mine there, thanks.
But Villein got much more problems, than low availability. It just must be killed before it kill all of us.

Lönkka wrote:

Suoli wrote:

People do quit games after being initially hooked and I do believe lacking Villeins could be a reason for someone to quit.

Has anyone actually so far encountered a situation where a player, new or old, has actually quit the game bacause of the availability of Villein (or any other card for that matter)?


Like Wookie813 I don't buy this "For heavens sake, think of the neonates!" -attitude.

Half of our playgroop actually, when the last seller of cards ran out of stock. People just are not used to buying from forein shops. Or they are remembering the Winter war

elotar wrote:

But Villein got much more problems, than low availability.

Continuing to make a blind assertion without backing it up with reasoning isn't gaining you any traction.

Gargoylee wrote:

BeAst wrote:

Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable?

Unfortunately BeAst, Suoli doesn't accept that Minion Tap has the same effect of Villeins on the ability to play big cap vampires. Presumably even in the absence of Villeins making it slightly less pool efficient.

Suoli wrote:

Big caps became much more playable after Villein. I see that as a positive.

Suoli wrote:

I don't agree that Minion Tap does exactly the same thing as Villein. The trifleness matters.

I thing the logic is smth like this: in big cap "before" you have to play 5+ MT, or even more BD/vessels/groomings. Now you r playing 5 villein, so it opens up 5+ master slots. Even with accendance your deck becomes better.

Also with villein in KoT were introdused great number of good big caps.

BeAst wrote:

Not only that, but how can the card be simultaneously so powerful and widespread to affect everyone that might play big caps and minion taps, and yet so incredibly rare as to be unobtainable?

Yep, exactly. Sorry for posting that short note. But: exactly.