Possible Unsportsmanlike Conduct?

First off, I had a fantastic time at Origins. It was great seeing a lot of VTES players I hadn't seen in a long time. And special kudos to Kevin for running so many stellar events.

There was, however, an incident during the Thursday Last Chance Qualifier that was very interesting. My grandpredator (who ended up with 0 VP that game) ousted me cross-table. I was playing a silly deck so I was more amused than upset, but I was wondering if the situation would have constituted unsportsmanlike conduct.

For the Last Chance Qualifier, I was playing an untested Might of the Camarilla / Banishment deck, utilizing a plethora of rarely seen cards including Memory's Fading Glimpse, San Lorenzo de El Escorial Spain, Gran Madre di Dio Italy, and even Mistrust. I also had a Possession, Sargon Fragment, Redeem the Lost Soul module and also Kaymakli Nightmares. Silly, but I did successfully play Memory's Fading Glimpse to good effect in both of my other rounds!

Here's the situation:

"A" (Malk/!Malk stealth bleed) ->
"B" (Toreador gun combat) ->
Eric Chiang (Banishment/Might of the Camarilla) ->
"D" (!Toreador weenie vote) ->
"E" (Ravnos)


Grandpredator "A" plays an early Antediluvian Awakening and brings out Persia and Midget.

Predator "B" brings out Felicia Mostrom

I bring out Lutz.

Prey "D" brings out Carter and a bunch of weenies.

Grandprey "E" brings out Gabrin and weenies.



Felicia gets a .44 Magnum

My prey "D" gets stopped by me. His early Crusade by Carter is voted down when I discard a vote card and after I get out Lutz he can't pass any votes.

My grandprey "E" bleeds into my grandpredator "A".

I only took 2 actions the whole game: Bled for 3 with Lutz (playing Enkil Cog). And later calling an out of turn Might of the Camarilla (with Voter Cap - I have 3 in the whole deck).

My grandpredator "A" mainly bleeds (his prey "B" and also me).



1. Early on my predator "B" seems worried about the stealth bleed behind him. To keep him focused backward, I say that if things get really grim later on, I might be able to help him at some future point.

2. After bringing out Lutz, I Villein him (for 7) but my grandpredator "A" cross-table Sudden Reverses it. He seems to think that based on my prior comment that I'm already against him (which I'm not. That was just standard table talk to your predator). When I say that I'm not surprised that he SR'ed it, he aggressively overreacts and demands "why aren't you surprised?"

3. When Felicia torporizes my grandpredator "A"'s Persia, I encourage my predator "B" to diablerize (saying I won't burn him with my votes), because it's another action that isn't in my direction. I have no combat defense in my hand at all, so I definitely want the gun deck going backward instead of forward. He decides to not diablerize though.

4. When my prey "D" plays Black Forest Base, I tell my grandpredator "A" that if he wants at some point in the future to have Midget call the vote, I will help pass it. I was just offering the option but his response is pretty much "You're already against me. I'm not going to ever call the vote - I'm not dumb." Which is interesting because calling a vote for 2 pool isn't necessarily a dumb thing to do.

5. I still haven't done anything to him when my grandpredator "A" cross-table bleeds me (directly with Kindred Spirits, *not* via a bounce) for 4.

6. Later on, to show that my deck is a lame trick deck and that I'm not much of a threat, I call Might of the Camarilla (with Voter Cap for 2 pool). Grandpredator "A" then bleeds my predator "B" who Telepathically Misdirects to me. I am at 6 pool and there is an Anarch Revolt in play. My grandpredator "A" stealths the bleed when I try to block with Jake Washington and pumps it up to a bleed for 5, leaving me at 1 pool with an Anarch Revolt in play (I have no Anarch).


Overall:

I spent 11 pool on Lutz and gained 2 with Voter Cap.

My predator bled me for 4 with Felicia and did 2 pool of damage with Anarch Revolt for 6 total.

My grandpredator bled me for 4 directly with Kindred Spirits, bled me for 5 (stealthing and bumping the bleed *after* being bounced), and doing about 6 damage via Antediluvian Awakening (15 total), plus SR'ing my Villein for 7.


I never actually did anything directly to my grandpredator. The closest was a Might of the Camarilla that affected everyone.

When my grandpredator "A" ensured that I would be ousted, his own prey ("B") was at 1 pool (which became 7 after I was ousted). If he had just focused on his own prey (such as not cross-table bleeding me earlier) he would have gotten an oust.

My grandpredator was soon ousted himself, getting 0 VP's.

I suppose he might argue that he was concerned about Lutz + Enkil Cog showing up, but the fact that I never did much (and was playing with Might of the Camarilla) should have clued him in that this wasn't a very competitive deck. Plus he could have tried talking to me and figuring out what my deck was if he was really that concerned about it.

So would you consider this bad play? Unsportsmanlike conduct? Something else?

"I still haven't done anything to him..."

This is where you are confused. You wrote two separate things that you did "against" him, and if it was as early as you suggest that it was, then you, especially sitting cross-table from him, should expect some level of backlash from your actions and/or table talk.

Did he overreact? Possibly.
Did you misplay and/or misspeak? Probably.

The lesson is:
People who are playing on tables against Kindred Spirits decks would do well not to forget that the Kindred Spirits deck is a gigantic loaded gun that can point anywhere, so act accordingly. If you aren't afraid, you should be.

"I'm not dumb."

echiang wrote:

So would you consider this bad play? Unsportsmanlike conduct? Something else?

I consider it bad play, not unsportsmanlike conduct. You did offer to help your predator, which many consider common practice when your predator is the prey of heavy stealth-bleed. However, some players take any "cross-tabling" personally. They get vindictive, possibly because cross-tabling has hurt them in previous games. It turns out it was a mistake on your part to suggest that your predator diablerize one of your grandpredator's minions. Some players wouldn't care.

The fact that you were playing Lutz automatically makes you a target of table hate, especially since you had shut down your prey. It doesn't matter that you had a "non-competitive deck": people will be afraid of you. Many times people will not wait to see the composition of your deck to make a judgment about your danger level when you bring out a scary vampire. Making a snap judgment almost is never in a player's favor, but it happens. I've certainly done it.

Some players are at a level where they see other players as either a friend or an enemy. They believe in the idea of the "cross-table ally", and so they are angrier at an "ally" who becomes an "enemy." You're supposed to be my ally, and if you dare to suggest a bad action against me, you are my enemy! It may be true that taking actions against another player because they made you mad is unsportsmanlike, but he could have so easily defended himself by saying you were a threat to him. I have seen vendettas against mild cross-tabling before, and now that I think about it, sometimes it can move into the territory of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Appearance and perception matter a lot to many players, and I think one of the intriguing aspects of the game is managing how you are perceived in the game by other players. This player needed to be treated with kid gloves, apparently.

However: you might have had a case that his attacking you with KS and also with the stealthed and pumped bleed were not Play to Win, considering how close his prey was to being ousted.

I have to agree with KevinM here.

Although I have some opinions of my own.
- Player "A" did not play well, giving his prey an oust.
- Player "A" begun see you, player "C", as a possible problem when you offered possible help to your predator. That's not playing against anyone, just smart playing generally; player "B" might go easy for you etc.
- Player "A" did overreact, when he heard you to suggest a diablerie (which I would have done, if I were player "C"), but that was also playing against him.

Now, I don't know how the table situation was at the moment, but had I been player "A", I would've attempted to oust my prey instead of my grand prey.

But playing against a threat to you doesn't actually make it unsportmanlike playing, were threat real or not. It might be bad or stupid playing.

plus, you brought out Lutz.

People tend to view Lutz as an immediate threat. How is he supposed to know you are playing a gimmick deck?
I have seen a player playing some PRE/PRO vote. His first minion influenced was Una, and she got torpored ASAP, then he got bled cross-table. When you influence some vamps first, do not be surprised you have no friends at the table, no matter what you play.