times Eric Chiang's Transparency as IC Storyline Coordinator

29 Apr 2013 05:30 #47911 by direwolf
What the fuck is the point of all this?

Juggernaut, you may disagree with echiang, but echiang was acting as he saw fit in his position. He is not longer in that position. I appreciate your desire for transparency and open discussion, but you are not getting that while pursuing echiang.

:tore: :pre: :tem: :aus: Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
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29 Apr 2013 08:14 #47917 by Suoli

I appreciate your desire for transparency and open discussion, but you are not getting that while pursuing echiang.

I disagree. While not openly discussing them, echiang's motivations should be transparent to anyone.
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29 Apr 2013 14:40 - 29 Apr 2013 14:44 #47929 by RoddimusPrime
Wow. Bad blood in the water much?

Reading all this back and forth between Eric and Andrew is interesting. And the interjections from people who clearly take issue with Eric and are biased clearly isn't helping much. If it were simply clarifications or making something accurate, then fine. But, otherwise those people will look like a troll themselves. So keep the snide comments to yourselves. Don't raise your voice, improve your argument.

And as evidenced, to those who don't know the issues, history, etc. such conversations are going to come across as just a portion of the whole and cause confusion. I kind of feel like Eric posted something in answer to transparency questions, and then someone grabbed a torch and isn't satisfied with half the answers. To which some of those answers may still be sidestepped or not answered (for whatever reason). Some things won't have the most factual answers anyway. It will rest on opinions and perceptions of decisions, actions, etc. Some would say there is conflict of interest in Eric essentially making his own set. Even alleging a potential 3rd party entity that isn't VEKN would be an attack on VEKN (really?). Or that there is a conflict between design team and storyline coordinator. Which by the way there isn't. But, why was there such conflict in not being able to take Eric and company's set and play test it in round 1 the way it was and make edits from there rather than before? What were the edits that Eric would not agree to? Perhaps he just wanted the public play testers first? I don't know, but it seems silly that this could not have been worked through. If it went straight to a legal letter, then yes, that is a bit silly as well.

Alternatively, is the VEKN and player base so strict on how things are to be done that someone cannot make their own set for people to review, play test, etc.? Is it somehow impossible that perhaps if it met certain criteria (accurately representing source material), and balance, that a card or cards could not make it into an VEKN official set? The way I see it the player base as a whole are responsible for the game while we have some select representatives who put some extra burden and weight onto themselves to push the game further and keep it around. Not some kind of authoritarian organization or spy network. As it is the game is a labor of love at this point. Although if print on demand comes to be I would assume some people are going to be getting paid who might be in the VEKN top brass (could be wrong).

This whole best players in the world play test/design thing, sounds odd to me too. If Eric had a decent play test group and somehow that did not include Ben Peal, etc. then somehow it isn't a legitimate group? Or doesn't comprise several elite talents? For that matter, many people in the Hall of Fame should have their shot at helping.

And as far as this dramatic back and forth with Eric and company? At least I have seen no vulgarity and hate filled comments come from him. Nor a constant bashing. People typically bandy around a cause blindly when something they love comes under attack. As to him giving some vague answers. Yes, I do believe there is some vague content.

The way it seems to me is there was simply a falling out. And it hasn't just been Eric and company who have had complaints launched at them or have fingers pointed at. And none of it paints a good image for VEKN. Disarray and confusion is the last thing that is needed for this game that is already in a fragile state.

The forum being as public as it is, we all get to see the aftermath of such events. Things are still developing and with persistence and luck VTES will have a bright future. But, this whole fiasco and drama from the top of the mountain never looks good. But, I guess it means at least some things are transparent! :P

For the record I don't want to endorse or back anyone to something that seems like a multi-faceted issue. Or for that matter a constant fire that needs put out. But, it doesn't mean I won't pose my own questions or take some stances to individual topics as you can see above.
Last edit: 29 Apr 2013 14:44 by RoddimusPrime.
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29 Apr 2013 19:18 #47939 by ReverendRevolver
Rodd, while im fairly certain you aim to just end this mess of an argument, there are details you have overlooked.

Eric haz done a great job of answering question, of which there are plenty, but because of that, (the abundance) there are things people feel he either didnt answer or didnt answer clearly enough.

I could care less about some sinister plot he does or doesnt have. But hes at least being calm.
Now, the fqct of the matter is PCK would have way more support or at least sympathy if thy had done things differently.

The games just holding together globablly because of the vekn as an entity. Before you or i started playing regional leagues operated differently.
If PCK sets are unofficially used in unofficial tourneys, a similar divide would be in place again.

I understand the creative need to help the game, and its unfortunate PCK had to split from the dt, but they made and playtested a whole set not using vekns submission guidelines just so the vekn cant touch thier cards, therefore making thier work, good or not, unusable for sanctioned real tourneys. Unless the community splits on the issue, which is all bad.

So, i respe t all individuals, but this bad blood and debate is a result of actions, not individuals.

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29 Apr 2013 20:12 #47940 by AaronC

The games just holding together globablly because of the vekn as an entity.

That's an opinion. VTES might be able to continue without VEKN. The limited support that VEKN provides might come from some other sources or be rendered obsolete. Lost of people play VTES with little to no oversight from VEKN.

Honestly, I think that Jeff Thompson is almost singlehandedly responsible for maintaining VEKN's position post-CCP/WW because of his tournament-winning deck archive and Hall of Fame. If he stopped maintaining the TWDA or if he chose to recognize other tournament formats, VEKN would lose a lot of its legitimacy.

It seems evident that VEKN is organized around a small set of players and their relationships. VEKN has influence because it has popular support and the support of key individuals like Mr. Thompson. I don't think that's going to change any time soon. It's not necessarily bad, but it certainly isn't the kind of rigorous organizational structure that PCK seem to want.

I admire PCK's organizational vision, but I'm not sure they would act much differently than the IC if they were in the power seat. I mean, collaboration is nice, but in the end, those with power get to decide. I have been dissapointed that they haven't proposed a parallel tournament format or something else semi-official.

PCK, why not find some interested people, and propose your own storyline tournament series on a new website. The storyline could feature your new sets. It could give players soft rewards like a ranking on your site and the ability to influence your future sets. Make it fun to appeal to the creative players, not the fogeys. Create an uproar by doing something constructive and interesting, not by endless posts on the forum.
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29 Apr 2013 21:59 #47941 by Charles_Bronson
Theres nothing better than to arrive home,get a cold beer and put this playlist while reading news at this topic.

1- Eye of the Tiger - Survivor
2- Smack my bitch up - Prodigy
3- One Step Closer - Linking Park
4- Welcome to the Jungle - Gun's n' Roses
5- Civil War - Gun's n' Roses
6- The Trooper - Iron Maiden
7- Shine on you crazy diamonds - Pink Floyd (for all nosense)
8- In the End - Linking Park

I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
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