times Eric Chiang's Transparency as IC Storyline Coordinator

29 Apr 2013 22:09 #47942 by Jeff Kuta

2a)We, PCK...


There was no "We, PCK" at that time. "PCK" formed loosely well after Carl and Eric had left the Design Team.

...threatened the VEKN that "bad things would happen"...


"Bad things would happen"? Is this a quote from something? Citation needed or at least context. What are you talking about?

Irrespective of your answer, bad things did happen. Despite my attempts to be proactive and communicative by reaching out to Ben Peal, problems on the Design Team persisted. This culminated with me, as an individual, going public about these problems in a "whistle blower" manner here:

vekn.net/index.php/forum/5-generic-vtes-discussion/24351-important-facts-about-the-first-vekn-set-in-development

...if your cards as-designed weren't accepted with no changes as the de-facto playtest set.


This is false. I'm not sure who you got this idea from, but they told you a half-truth, untruth, or outright lied.

Making sure that everyone remembers the threats that you leveled at the VEKN, just because you keep "forgetting" them.


I wouldn't have mentioned the "strongly worded letter" above if I didn't stand by every word of it, and all the posts following in the thread.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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29 Apr 2013 22:46 #47943 by Jeff Kuta

My exact words:

"PKC seeks to attack the V:EKN"
I let the community build their own opinion about the current effort of PKC to influence the creation of the official V:EKN set.

I am not sure where you see "provocative rhetoric" here. I think a threat of litigation is very clearly an attack and then it is a single introductory sentence on why I post this letter, so the community can form their opinion on your efforts.

I think the outrage was more based on your douche-baggy letter than on my allegedly provocative rhetoric.


Johannes, the header you wrote is clearly provocative. To impartially let "the community form their opinion", any number of headers could have been used, such as "PCK Sends the VEKN a Cease & Desist Letter". There was already plenty of outrage, quite a bit directly from members of the IC. Publishing the letter only incited tensions again.

In my perspective, a cease and desist letter is a means to get involved parties talking (again) when nothing else seems to yield productive results. This particular letter was the logical conclusion of the VEKN IC's complete unwillingness to even discuss open issues, which we publicly stated we wanted to resolve in a peaceful and positive manner months before.

The C&D letter was sent to the IC only, intentionally and in confidence, because we did not think it made sense to jeopardize any of the other party's ongoing negotiations with CCP/WotC. The fact this situation had disintegrated into even necessitating a C&D letter demonstrates the systematic judgmental lapses by the VEKN Inner Circle and Design Team Leader, and unwillingness to communicate, despite outstanding issues.

Making the letter public only gives credence to the idea that such a letter was even necessary. It would have been easy for the IC to find a suitable agreement with us if they were only willing to talk.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
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29 Apr 2013 23:38 #47944 by ReverendRevolver


The games just holding together globablly because of the vekn as an entity.


That's an opinion. VTES might be able to continue without VEKN. The limited support that VEKN provides might come from some other sources or be rendered obsolete. Lost of people play VTES with little to no oversight from VEKN.

Honestly, I think that Jeff Thompson is almost singlehandedly responsible for maintaining VEKN's position post-CCP/WW because of his tournament-winning deck archive and Hall of Fame. If he stopped maintaining the TWDA or if he chose to recognize other tournament formats, VEKN would lose a lot of its legitimacy.

It seems evident that VEKN is organized around a small set of players and their relationships. VEKN has influence because it has popular support and the support of key individuals like Mr. Thompson. I don't think that's going to change any time soon. It's not necessarily bad, but it certainly isn't the kind of rigorous organizational structure that PCK seem to want.

I admire PCK's organizational vision, but I'm not sure they would act much differently than the IC if they were in the power seat. I mean, collaboration is nice, but in the end, those with power get to decide. I have been dissapointed that they haven't proposed a parallel tournament format or something else semi-official.

PCK, why not find some interested people, and propose your own storyline tournament series on a new website. The storyline could feature your new sets. It could give players soft rewards like a ranking on your site and the ability to influence your future sets. Make it fun to appeal to the creative players, not the fogeys. Create an uproar by doing something constructive and interesting, not by endless posts on the forum.


Would you really consider it an option to use pdf prints of the PCK set instead of physical POD cards from vekn sets?

Also, pck has never, to my knowledge, claimed to be up to anything other than making cards, and in recent activity, asking for transparency about Pascals process in banning LB.

I dont think they are interested in uprooting/ overthrowing the vekn, they made some cards when they split from the dt and made them available to the public after testing them.

I have not seen them and have no desire to. Not that i dont respect them as players or potential designers, because i do, but i dont want to have any possibility that anything i evef submit resemble something of thiers and have it even be possible i subconsiosly ripped them off. Because thats not what they are making cards for.

And finally, there is legitimacy to some of what you said, aaron. Especially wondering why noone else has tried to make a rival vekn. I wouldnt get behind it, but itd be natural, all things considered.

Just ax me saying the games holding together because of the vekn( which may mean to you something othrr than" the rules that the vekn gives and the cards they make are what the entire community looks at, so if i play on another continent, someones house rules arent what i play by" but i meant in a context of unity, not the alleged dictating things...) is in fqct my opinion, the VEKN being based around some small amount of players and thier relationships is your opinion. I try to be scientific about the reasons i support the vekn. Johannes seems to know what hes doing, but more than that, ben peal, the tatus, pascal, and to some extent hugh are all affiliated with the vekn. Lasombra sees nothing wrong with them, to my knowledge. These are all people WAYoutside of my playgroup that i feel comfortable saying know the game well enough to run the players association. And they are getting us printed.

So, while we all know what opinions are like, im confident that i base mine in reason and logic.

If we cant even concede that certain rules arexuniversally what are acceptable, and so on, in what way are we as a community playing the same game?
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30 Apr 2013 01:26 - 30 Apr 2013 01:27 #47945 by Juggernaut1981

In my perspective, a cease and desist letter is a means to get involved parties talking (again) when nothing else seems to yield productive results. This particular letter was the logical conclusion of the VEKN IC's complete unwillingness to even discuss open issues, which we publicly stated we wanted to resolve in a peaceful and positive manner months before.

I worked with big business for a while as part of one of the major 4 accounting firms. And C&D Letters are not "hey we would like to chat" they are most often construed as "Stop it now before we try calculate just how much we think the court should force you to pay us." In general, they are not the 'tool of subtle negotiation' that you make them out to be.

The C&D letter was sent to the IC only, intentionally and in confidence, because we did not think it made sense to jeopardize any of the other party's ongoing negotiations with CCP/WotC. The fact this situation had disintegrated into even necessitating a C&D letter demonstrates the systematic judgmental lapses by the VEKN Inner Circle and Design Team Leader, and unwillingness to communicate, despite outstanding issues.

It is still disturbing, that even when you suggest that your communications with the IC had degenerated to that point you began legal action (which is exactly what a C&D is). How is that at all acting in a spirit of negotiation and to calm a tense situation? When it comes to lapses in judgement, I don't think the ICs are the only ones guilty...

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Last edit: 30 Apr 2013 01:27 by Juggernaut1981.
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30 Apr 2013 05:29 #47953 by KevinM

2a)We, PCK...

There was no "We, PCK" at that time. "PCK" formed loosely well after Carl and Eric had left the Design Team.

Sorry, my error. I should've said "Me, Jeff Kuta".

...threatened the VEKN that "bad things would happen"...

"Bad things would happen"? Is this a quote from something? Citation needed or at least context. What are you talking about?

vekn.net/index.php/forum/5-generic-vtes-discussion/24814-open-letter-to-jeff-kuta-from-the-ic#24814

Irrespective of your answer, bad things did happen. Despite my attempts to be proactive and communicative by reaching out to Ben Peal, problems on the Design Team persisted.

Because of you, not because of the DTL. Proof: The DTL is still here and we have an awesome set of cards. If he were the problem, well...

...if your cards as-designed weren't accepted with no changes as the de-facto playtest set.

This is false. I'm not sure who you got this idea from, but they told you a half-truth, untruth, or outright lied.

vekn.net/index.php/forum/5-generic-vtes-discussion/24814-open-letter-to-jeff-kuta-from-the-ic#24814

Making sure that everyone remembers the threats that you leveled at the VEKN, just because you keep "forgetting" them.

I wouldn't have mentioned the "strongly worded letter" above if I didn't stand by every word of it, and all the posts following in the thread.

I'm glad to hear it. I just want it known, and will continue to say it when I hear you claim "strongly worded letter" that what you are really talking about are the threats that you made to the VEKN. I think things like that are important, because they show the level that you are willing to take things to, which your less-accurate term doesn't describe.

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
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you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
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30 Apr 2013 05:39 #47954 by Juggernaut1981

Theres nothing better than to arrive home,get a cold beer and put this playlist while reading news at this topic.

1- Eye of the Tiger - Survivor
2- Smack my bitch up - Prodigy
3- One Step Closer - Linking Park
4- Welcome to the Jungle - Gun's n' Roses
5- Civil War - Gun's n' Roses
6- The Trooper - Iron Maiden
7- Shine on you crazy diamonds - Pink Floyd (for all nosense)
8- In the End - Linking Park


9- Invaders - Iron Maiden
10- On her Majesty's Secret Service - Propellorheads
11- Baying of the Hounds - Opeth
12- Black Shuck - The Darkness
13- Come to Daddy - Aphex Twin

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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