file V:TES Rulebook update question

18 Oct 2017 19:42 #83915 by Ankha


Under naming templates:

“Cancel a card”: A “cancelled” card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid.


Wait what? Shouldn't this be cost is NOT paid?


This is correct as it stands.
The cost IS paid, except when explicit card text states that the cost is NOT paid.

Correct, since 1994.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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18 Oct 2017 20:30 - 18 Oct 2017 20:34 #83916 by Bloodartist

This is correct as it stands.
The cost IS paid, except when explicit card text states that the cost is NOT paid.

Correct, since 1994.


Well I guess so, since every card that I can think of offhand explicitly states that the cost is not paid... Example: sudden reversal, wash, bleeding the vine, direct intervention, evil eye....

Makes me wonder whats the point of this rule if its almost never in effect? I always just assumed that the card texts were merely reminding of the rule of no cost paid. Especially since the "no cost is paid" text is in brackets.

edit: Ok, I am legion doesn't mention that cost would not be paid..

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 18 Oct 2017 20:34 by Bloodartist.

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18 Oct 2017 20:38 #83917 by Kraus
Also Santaleous.

Keep on spamming those Zillahs!

It's pretty important, that rule.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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18 Oct 2017 21:01 #83918 by Ankha

This is correct as it stands.
The cost IS paid, except when explicit card text states that the cost is NOT paid.

Correct, since 1994.


Well I guess so, since every card that I can think of offhand explicitly states that the cost is not paid... Example: sudden reversal, wash, bleeding the vine, direct intervention, evil eye....

Makes me wonder whats the point of this rule if its almost never in effect? I always just assumed that the card texts were merely reminding of the rule of no cost paid. Especially since the "no cost is paid" text is in brackets.

edit: Ok, I am legion doesn't mention that cost would not be paid..


That's the trouble with some cardtext that is (was) between parenthesis, and that is not reminder text. Anyway, it's been the rule since at least 1997 (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JwpgbD9Ihy0/-T-0QUYDXW8J).

There are plenty more cards that don't give you back the cost paid, as listed by Pascal:

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/RkEUabeJNdM/R6t3F2I5RzYJ

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18 Oct 2017 21:35 - 19 Oct 2017 13:36 #83919 by TwoRazorReign
The problem isn't really the parentheses and reminder text (although that doesn't help). It's that half the time when a card is cancelled, the cost is paid and half the time it's not, with a seemingly arbitrary "default" of paying the cost. It makes no sense to have this default "Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid" in the rulebook if this many cards are going to override it.

An exception to a default should be (1) rare and/or (2) a blatant, obvious exception to the default. An example is the additional strikes coming from one source rule ("a minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat"), and Jacko's exception to this default ("Jacko gets an optional additional strike during the first round of combat. This does not count against his additional strike effect limit for that round.)"

The cancel rule and ubiquitous cards with an exception to this default goes against the spirit of having a default in the first place. The "Unless explicitly written, cost for the card is paid" text should be removed from the rulebook and card text should state whether the cost is paid in every case.
Last edit: 19 Oct 2017 13:36 by TwoRazorReign.

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18 Oct 2017 22:52 - 18 Oct 2017 22:59 #83921 by Bloodartist


There are plenty more cards that don't give you back the cost paid, as listed by Pascal:

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/RkEUabeJNdM/R6t3F2I5RzYJ


Well, I went thru that and the list has actually more cards in "cost is not paid" list than "cost is paid" list (29 vs 27 respectively). Also several cards in the second list are special multi-card interaction cases that were probably not thought of when the card was designed, usually involving cards that say "playing X costs additional pool".

The majority of cards seems to be in the "cost is not paid" camp. Just saying.

My personal opinion is that if a rule has more exceptions than actual applications, something is wrong.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 18 Oct 2017 22:59 by Bloodartist.

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