file Number of VtES players

01 Sep 2019 08:04 #96680 by Pyrocuror
Replied by Pyrocuror on topic Number of VtES players

I'm also a competitive Magic player and have been for 25 years. I play Vintage and Legacy mostly.

As I began to consider 'expanding' our pool of cards I researched the current 'best' decks and was shocked to find the same core cards from 25 years ago that we had learned to sort of be the rock, paper, scissors of our 'Jyhad' format are still being spammed constantly in 2019.

I also hapen to also play Legacy. I stopped a couple years ago and got back into MtG recently. And you know what ? I saw the same decks I played, almost card for card years ago. Delver variants with playsets of brainstorms, preordain and ponders. ANT storm with the exact same list card for cards. Chalice for one decks trying to shutdown the aforementioned. Reanimator and Sneak and show trying to get Grisebrand in.
All in all, the same cards still being spammed in 2019.

Concerning the waste of money that VTES can be, it's pretty audacious coming from a Vintage player right ? I mean the most expensive tier 1 deck in VTES isn't even worth a fwb played volcanic island, and a huge majority of the other competitive decks are cheaper than a playset of fetches ... I mean ... come on.
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01 Sep 2019 11:11 #96681 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Number of VtES players

Be better for who ? And I still don't understand what kind of decks or games he wants.
I can somehow understand wanting to play only in casual environment with sub-optimal or straight bad decks, but why would you want to change the whole game and force actual tournament players to endure this


How often do you play?

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01 Sep 2019 11:14 #96682 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Number of VtES players

As I began to consider 'expanding' our pool of cards I researched the current 'best' decks and was shocked to find the same core cards from 25 years ago that we had learned to sort of be the rock, paper, scissors of our 'Jyhad' format are still being spammed constantly in 2019.

- Govern / Conditioning Stealth (Scissors)
- Majesty / S:CE (Rock)
- Immortal Grapple (Paper)

I was honestly a little depressed. We had only been playing again for a year or so and are already pretty bored with that basic paradigm. So I searched to see if there is a 'Type II', e.g. a modern fixed version of the game and found nothing. The game had committed many of Magics sins in an effort to evolve and was now a massive unwieldy set of infinite sects, clans, card types, strictly bests. Trifles, events, garbage like Giant's Blood still legal amazed me.

All of the above is my opinion based on a year of playing again and then wanting to expand into post Jyhad cards. Our conclusion among the 8 players was it would be a catastrophic waste of money and time. Nothing would really be gained. We decided instead to simply introduce group 2 to our vampire pool to avoid contesting so much and that's it.

From a local roots level I agree with redwulfe, BCP should introduce Friday Night Bloodhunt or something and focus only on pre-cons or constructed deck from a card pool that begins with their new printings and goes forward. This will be the only way to get new blood into the game in my humble opinion. The 25 year old cluster fuck of rules and cards and 22 x Majesty or Stealth Bleed snooze fests won't keep anybody interested.

BCP has been given an excuse to restore some sanity to the game, restart without the broken cards from the 1st set and use all the knowledge and experience of the great players at sites like VEKN to make a balanced interesting in store format. Big events can still play 'Vintage' but you need a fresh start format to grow the game.

Thanks for reading.


Well, it seems to me that you didn't fully get the specificities of VtES.

First it is a multiplayer game so rock paper scissors doesn't work so well as a way to see the game because you can find 2 scissors 1 rock and 2 papers on a table with a lot of placement combinations and sometimes the cards are less important than the way the players will interact with each other with the scissors not wanting to cut (yet) the paper because the rock seems too strong for now (I will not argue against the choice you made for what is rock, paper, scissors or even lizard or Spock because it is not the place here but if you want, I would be happy to talk (at length) of that on another thread of discussion).

And second, the other big specificity of VtES is the fact that you replace EACH card you play or discard ! And so, in the great majority of decks (competitive or casual) you will be able to change 5/15 cards in it according to your liking/playstyle/environment without altering too much the deck itself. And it has (IMO) a huuuuge benefit : you can choose to play sub optimal cards, or even straight bad cards just because you want to (for whatever reasons really) without costing you a single % of winrate ! And so there is diversity to the deck you encounter.

And then, I would love to have multiple competitive formats ! Really ! But let's be honest here. The number of players actually playing VtES right now would not support it.
But what can be done (and we actually do it here in Paris and you did it if I read you correctly) is once in a while organizing special events were special rules apply. And it can be anything really and what you propose is a good idea to do it. Just IMO, for now, the competitive scene supported by BCP/WW/VEKN can't really have multiple formats.
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01 Sep 2019 12:35 #96685 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Number of VtES players

Just IMO, for now, the competitive scene supported by BCP/WW/VEKN can't really have multiple formats.


(Above edited: WW doesn't "support" anything. They license)

I totaly agree. The tournament scene is rather small and I kinda think fracturing it with different kinds of formats will only do the game disservice.

And different types of tournaments, like draft, are already possible.

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01 Sep 2019 13:03 #96686 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Number of VtES players
Fanboy rush on every rare sane reply on this forum actually mirrors the fate of a new player, trying to join VtES playgroup :D

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01 Sep 2019 13:48 #96687 by Reality_Check
It seems this is a good opportunity to share my experience as a relatively new VTES player (also a long-time lurker) here. Another long post coming.

I have been playing the game for little more than 3 years. The first year relatively often, at least on a bi-weekly basis. Less often later, perhaps once a month and less.

Bit of my background: Boardgaming has been a major hobby for me, I play in a group at least once or twice a week. I play range of genres, including heavy euros, wargames, LCGs. I do not shy away from cutthroat affairs.

This year I decided to limit my further involvement with VTES to annual participation at the EC and the local national tournament. Maybe I will just drop it completely at some point. I believe my experience might be relevant for the discussion on the lack of new players. I claim no truth statements based on statistical evidence, just my own experience, observation and opinions.

Based on my own experience, I believe that as long as VTES largely remains in its current state (superbloated, disbalanced power levels, broken combos, newbie-unfriendly) there will be bare minimum of new players willing to try the game and then stay with it in any near-term future.

Some of the veteran players, generally so used to the game's state that they consider it standard, seem to be either completely divorced from reality regarding what would be needed to attract new players, or perhaps they just do not care (and simply want to play the same fossilized game till their demise).

There is no "casual" meta for newcomers here where I used to play for a while, just the old true believers grinding on with the overpowered decks.

Let me tell you, the VTES can be a miserable, miserable experience for a newcomer. There is little fun in being ousted say in the middle of a game and then having to deal with one hour of downtime (no there is usually not enough players to immediately start a new game), there is little fun in watching players divide victory points and then go against the normal flow of the game, there is little fun in being at the table with a player exploiting one of those absurdly broken combos that let them play literally 20+ minutes per turn or more, there is little fun in having to sit at the table with all your minions down with nothing to do after some frustrated individual got his power-trip fix by rushing heavily, there is little fun in being ousted by some random monstrous bleed redirected X times around the table.

In my opinion, the aspects of the game such as those mentioned above, will surely prevent any influx of new players from the boardgaming world (as I directly observed). The people interested in lore are unlikely to join either, as the game is not really about neogothic/technoir vampires doing interesting things in interesting ways, but rather about using limited number of overpowered cards and combos with little theme behind the actions. And what is left then? The CCG format except for the MtG is generally dead, and I have my doubts whether this game could attract a lot MtG players that had not known about the game before.

In my first year playing VTES, I tried to introduce the game to my boardgaming buddies, and even ran a table with introductory decks and support material at a gaming event. Zero interest was generated. During my involvement with the two main play groups in the country (perhaps 30 people in total, maybe 1/2 of that truly active), I saw about 6 new people in those three years, two at maximum stayed with the game. There were also few individual old players from 90s returning to the "scene". Meanwhile board/card games are blooming as a hobby.

This is my five cents. I think the game will continue as it is. Any significant changes will be prevented by the fear of losing orthodox old guards with no new players to replace them (a relevant fear, this is not early 90s afterall). I will watch from a distance, hoping to be proven wrong. The rich lore deserves a better treatment in a card/boardgame format.

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