file Reforming the VEKN rating system ?

20 Apr 2021 13:03 - 20 Apr 2021 13:09 #102075 by Timo
This forum thread (www.vekn.net/forum/generic-v-tes-discussion/79110-multi-deck-possibilite-for-12-players-tournaments) began a discussion about the rating system and not wanting it to drift too much, I begin another thread here to discuss what I think are the flaws of this system and maybe find some ideas about how to improve it.

First a disclaimer : I will express my own personnal opinion. I am not telling absolute truth because (sadly) I don't have them. Feel free to do the same.

The rules :
For those who don't know the rules of the rating system, they are here : www.vekn.net/rating-system

The flaws :
- aggressive decks are favored (there is a reward for a lot of VP even if the goal of the game is to score GW and 1GW as the same value as 2 VP) so a only forward deck will score more points than a "control" deck even if both will end being 2nd in final.
- there is "good" points to have only for the first 5 no matter how many players attended. Scoring 2GW10 VP in a 200+ players Continental Championship and being 6th will earn the exact same number of rating points than scoring 1GW4 and being 5th in a 15 players tournament in your local store with a final tyeing everybody at 0.5 VP.
- the "good" points are given with regard to the number of player with no imput about their respective levels : a veteran going in a beginner tournament and winning will earn the same number of points than a beginner going in a veteran tournament and winning
- playing 20 tournaments a year is a big advantage no matter how you fare in the majority of them as long as you have good results in 8 of them in the past 18 monthes

The solutions ? :
- scaling the points earned with the number of players (and national/continental championship) for everyone and not only the first 5 players
- scaling the points earned with regard to the players against who you played.

So ELO you say ?

Actually, it is a good rating system but I am not ELO savy enough to know if something has already been designed for a multiplayer game like VTES (specially with predator/prey relationship)

Last thing : I don't want to change the way a tournament is played. The tournament system is good for me. Only the way the ranking is done should be changed.

Your thoughts ?
Last edit: 20 Apr 2021 13:09 by Timo.

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20 Apr 2021 19:16 #102078 by beslin igor
Hey Timo,in starting this year I also think about idea how to change current rating sistem.
That what you said: "  - playing 20 tournaments a year is a big advantage no matter how you fare in the majority of them as long as you have good results in 8 of them in the past 18 monthes" ,is truth,if you play more games you can have beter place in world ranking than some beter players.
I also agre with this:  " Last thing : I don't want to change the way a tournament is played. The tournament system is good for me. Only the way the ranking is done should be changed." 
Im chess player,and know how work ELO in chess,and i like if that can be implement in VTES too.
I will add too how FIFA started to rated footbol with ELO sistem after world cup 2018.

So how we can implament that in VTES?
I can offer starting idea,but if vekn be interested,we can talk how to improve idea.
So 1st players need to get some starting rating(for example vekn can colect some tournament(they decide how much last mounth tournaments be included there) to players get starting rating,but they need to get starting rating of % VP and GW in these events,not to every event only increase starting rating)
Then in start next tournament when players start games everyone there need to have expected results(is clear how beter rating players will have higher expected results). if someone take more than is expected his rating increase,if someone take less points,then his rating go down-is simple.
How rating finals? I will there use idea from footbal,where teams cant lose ratings in elimination phase. so players who enter in finals can only increase rating.
About some bonuses as it bonuses for: nacional championship,continental championship....and other tipe events,there we can discus does every game in this event need to have bonus,or only finals game.
So there is just idea how ELO can work,but yea,need to see how to improve idea. 
I think last days to publish me post,but is also good to wrote this there as comment in you topic,so I know how someone too like rating sistem changes





 

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21 Apr 2021 07:39 - 21 Apr 2021 07:44 #102084 by smeeag
ELO shines for chess etc, because we can safely assume it's almost impossible to win 1500 ELO vs 2400 ELO (and rating diffence is basically represents chances of different outcomes). However, in VTES it's very common for average player to earn more VP in the single game than extra-pro, depending on the decks, seating, etc.
With this, I think it's OK to use ELO-kind rating for the full tournament results determining amount of rating change based on average rating of attendees, but use VP/GW (may be adjusted how much is VP vs GW worth, to mitigate the issue with agressive decks as stated above) to determine who will get the raise.
Last edit: 21 Apr 2021 07:44 by smeeag.

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21 Apr 2021 08:37 #102085 by Timo
Actually an ELO-ish system based on the full tournament results could be a good idea.

It could keep some kind of gap betwwen 6th and finalists (being 2nd and 1st) and it would mean more points for someone with 1GW2 in the tournament than someone with 0GW6 (right now, it is the same number if neither one reach the final).

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21 Apr 2021 18:59 #102090 by kschaefer
Didn't VEKN use an ELO-like system for rating in the past? Didn't we move away from it because it doesn't work in a complex, multi-player game?

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22 Apr 2021 18:34 #102105 by beslin igor

Didn't VEKN use an ELO-like system for rating in the past? Didn't we move away from it because it doesn't work in a complex, multi-player game?


 

Really? i dint know that. 
If posible I would like to read rules this old rating sistem,maybe can be improved somehow.
Current rating sistem help players who can play more games,because you can only increase ratings. by using ELO sistem you lose rating when play badly.
look current vekn tabela,where is last Europe champion in this list? players with more tournament  " eat him for the breakfast " 

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